you got abu zubada to finger the 9/11 mastermind, and you unearthed jose padilla's plan to use a dirty bomb. can i assume all of that is waterboarding? because that enhanced interrogation is what got us the tips we needed to fight al qaeda. >> actually, none of this, as you mentioned, is because of interrogation techniques or waterboarding. for example, abu zubadia, the first question, i asked him his name. he gave me a wrong alias, so i looked at him in the face, and i said, "what i if i call you hani?" that was the name his mother nicknamed him as a child. he had that look, oh, my gosh, he got me. he started talking and gave actionable intelligence in the first hour of our interrogation. >> stephen: but it wasn't enough because they eventually brought in an outside contractor who water boarded him 83 times. >> exactly. >> stephen: so if you were getting good information, they wouldn't have given him the free swimming lessons. >> right. right. the 83 waterboarding sessions is just a perfect example how these techniques don't work because... >> stephen: what do you mean? >> if it worke