and a committee headed by al segal, who was an assistant managing editor, prescribed a for the times a public editor. the times, a lot of ooher papers have ombudsmen. the times had already said, the readers' representative. we shouldn't have to hire an ouusider to dd that, but under the other extreme assault on our credibility, it just seemed like a reasonable measure. you know, there's -- all you have to do is say the words, utter the phrase, public editor in the newsroom and people will gather around and, and you'll, it'll be like gathered around a pit bull fight or somethingg it's still a ontroversial and unpleasant thing. and particularly now that the internet has given us an endless supply of critics, the idea that we would pay somebody ggod money and give them space to do it in our own paper and sometimes call. >> smith: and have them essentially unanswerable and unaccountable right? they operate as totally independent actor within the paper. >> keller: that's correct. >> smith: yeah. >> keller: you know, there, i've certainly had -- the last time we were on our fourth public e