one of the architects of australia's policy is the former foreign minister, alexander downer. der policy and is on the panel set up to oversee the implementation of the rwanda policy. hejoins us now. thanks so much, alexander, for your time today. we heard him talk about the damage the australian policy did to himself and others, there is no justification for the human rights violations, what does that mean to you? violations, what does that mean to ou? ~ ., ., , violations, what does that mean to ou? ., you? what we did do is stop people makin: you? what we did do is stop people making dangerous _ you? what we did do is stop people making dangerous journeys - you? what we did do is stop people making dangerous journeys from i making dangerous journeys from indonesia to australia where hundreds of people were drowned, so this was a very dangerous practice. we stopped it pretty much altogether tjy we stopped it pretty much altogether by saying that when people tried to come to australia that way they wouldn't be processed in australia, they be processed in nauru or people would

in a moment, we'll talk to alexander downer now , he talk to alexander downer now, he was part of thelian government that did not just stop the boats. they towed them back to indonesia. i'm going to ask him how effective he thinks the rwanda legislation is going to be, and bear in mind he has been a government adviser on this policy . holac stop the boats that is rishi sunak big policy. indeed. as it was boris johnson's before. they've managed to pass their rwanda legislation. if it all was to go to plan rwanda would, dunng was to go to plan rwanda would, during the month of july into august, take 2 to 300 people. but then if they're coming across the channel in three or 4 or 5 hundreds every day, i wonder how much of a disincentive that would be. i talked a moment ago with ivan samson about the complexities legally and constitutionally, of all of this. but of course, there is one country that faced a very similar problem and dealt with it highly effectively and alexander downer, who's acted as an advisor to the uk government on this problem and you've held very high office in austral

tomorrow about lessons for the uk�*s rwanda policy when we speak to australia�*s foreign minister alexander downer by men, has better ways of protest. thousands of people call the action on gender—based violence. the australian government said on average a woman is killed by a man every four days. anthony albanese, the prime minister, dick declared that issue a national crisis at a rally. i declared that issue a national crisis at a rally.— crisis at a rally. i know, i know. — crisis at a rally. i know, i know. and _ crisis at a rally. i know, i know, and that - crisis at a rally. i know, i know, and that is - crisis at a rally. i know, i know, and that is why i l crisis at a rally. i know, i. know, and that is why i am here. i am know, and that is why i am here. iam here. i know that know, and that is why i am here. i am here. i know that we must do better that i know this as well. that i�*ve got to be honest — it is notjust government�*s problem it is a problem of our entire society. cheering and applause. the prime minister�*s commentate —— comments was not celebrated by all. . , �* , , ., all.

i mean, look, you know, i had alexander downer on the show this evening, the former foreign ministerountry, and somebody who helped the british government. but but the point is this australia were genuinely sovereign. they weren't encumbered by this completely outdated three quarters of a century old european convention on human rights. and that complicates things in the most extraordinary way. and the one thing the government of this country will never do is go against what the courts, especially the supreme court, decide. so australia were they were freer to do what they did. now they still met with international condemnation. now the eu condemned them. we condemn them . the united nations condemn them. the united nations condemned them. they just bloomin did it. and after a fortnight of doing it, that's how you destroy the traffickers model of taking money from those that want to come, this isn't going to work. it's going to be an absolute legal mess of catastrophic proportions. and if sunak stays beyond 10 to 12 weeks from now, and there's not a general election, they will be lit