and he was the man who actually had known ali hassan salameh in his cairo days, even before he joinedey were personal friends. so he was intermediary between ames and ali hassan salameh. and he did this simply because he thought it was the right thing to do. so he was never, never an agent, although for 10 years he served acted as a virtual acts as agent as it's called, a man who introduces the cia clandestine officer to other sources. and even after ames' death, which devastated him, he did, he courageously went back to the middle east after the cia station chief was kidnapped in 1985, and he, in very dangerous circumstance, risked his own life and was almost killed in a car bomb attack, and to try to find a way to free the cia officer. he's an extraordinary character, you know, but he's actually rather depressed and pessimistic these days about the future of the troubled neighborhood. [applause] >> thank you. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and you're watching kai bird to talk about his most recent book, a good spy. this book is live coverage of the 14th annual national book festival here in the washing