and finally i find it really remarkable feminist progressive activist alice hamilton, who was one of the founders of the modern public health. she went to these mines. she looked and she saw that it was the dust from so the rocks that they were drilling into that was making them sick. there's a more contemporary example that came from more recent work of mine that had to do with farm workers and pesticide farm workers we really aware of very serious effects. the widespread of aerosol pesticides. again, we had long period in this country which some, you may remember, of being assured that these things were safe. these like ddt and so on. well, of course, it turned out that the mine were absolutely right. but once you start talking about expertise, it's difficult to find that kind of vernacular expertise can enter the public discourse and deserve respect. and i'll just say one more thing i want to tell you an occasion to be talking to a very mp and a politician who was conservative. and he literally said to me, the problem with our government that we don't have enough smart ople in the