i mean i don't -- i think a alistar campbell said after he left, he came in the back door. he wasn't any conspiracy, he just didn't need was he coming back or taking over or whatever. >> in relation to mrs. brooks, do you feel that you got too close to her when you were in power? >> look, rebekah brooks mattered obviously because i think he was the editor of "the sun" during my time. she had come to this monsignor position in international after i left. i guess frankly towards the end particularly, and i think you'll see a lot of meetings and calls towards the end, there wasn't a great deal of support left. so those people that did, sure, i was pretty close to. again, i mean bluntly, the decision maker was not rebekah brooks in relation to this. >> it was obviously mr. murdoch? >> yes. he was the key decision maker for sure. >> a schedule of all your contacts with editors between may, 1997, and june, 2007, has been provided. it runs to 18 pages. i'm sure we can put that on the screen. >> yeah. >> if there's any one point arising out of those earlier interactions, it's dinne

>> i do actually remember alistar telling me about his conversation with phil hall, yeah. which is not to say he knew, by the way, i don't think -- by then, this is mid-march, 1997, i think. >> it is. >> so by then, i think, would have been surprised actually if they hadn't come up and backed us. >> as a general point being made an accurate one, the big fear was more unions in europe? >> i think probably that was true, actually. i mean, look, they had been through all this business so the unions weren't a theoretical issue, it was a major practical issue. i mean he felt to some extent rightly that if he hadn't been able to overcome that union opposition, he would never have been able to save the "times" and operate in the country. so it was obviously going to be a big issue for them. but my position on the unions, let me make it absolutely clear, is because we believed knit. so we introduced a minimum wage, part-time workers, we introduced recognition. we were going to introduce individual rights, and i was determined -- and this is a matter of conviction not because ruper

. >> the final point in, my first few weeks as alistar campbell's deputy, so that was 1998, i was told by somebody who would know that we had assured mr. murdoch we wouldn't change policy on europe without talking to him first. was that assurance given? >> no. we never gave an assurance to mar do murdoch or anybody else that we were not going to change policy without seeking some sort of permission. that's absurd. however, having said that, if we were about to engage in a major change of policy on an issue that mattered to any particular media group, we probably would have tried to prepare the way for it. but that, again, i think is perfectly sensible and there's nothing wrong with that. you see the thing that's important to realize about this is of course you were aware that he and indeed other papers had very strong stances on issues. again i think it's important this is not simply located with the murdoch media or anybody else. we realized "the guardian" would have strong issues on certain things and "the mirror," for example, and the mail group and so on, "telegraph." and would we

knew that if i did, you have to be very, very clear about this, and that was the debate i had with alistar and others in government all the way through. if you take this on, do not think for a single moment you are not in a long, protracted battle that will shove everything else to one side while it is going on. >> you make that very clear in your statement, particularly in paragraph 36. but in paragraph 11 you say we should be aware that some of the media profound ly disagree that there's a real problem. do you believe that that's still the case even now, mr. blair? >> yes. >> are you identifying a section of the media? it may be invidious to start naming papers. but we're confined to a section, are we? >> yes, i think we're confined to a section. this is the point, why i think it's very difficult to discuss these issues without people misunderstanding what you're saying. i mean i'm not making a token statement when i say british journalism at its best is as good as it is in the world. and i see a lot more of journalism around the world today. i think at their best, the best british newsp