he has bits of him that are very anti-establishment, sort of ame americratic, i would say, so maybe it's partly derived from his own thinking. is there an element of political calculation? i don't know. i suppose there could be. >> you say in paragraph 9 the wrong paradigm, this is to confuse political objectives with commercial interests. >> yeah. >> isn't it not possible to argue that the primary purpose on this approach would be the exercise of political power, the secondary purpose may well be to advance the interests of the paper, including its commercial interests? >> yeah. look, i think what i'm really saying here is of course like any commercial organization, they'll have their commercial interests there. but i also point out in my statement, and i will say this very strongly where we get on to the detail of this, actually we decided more stuff against the murdoch interest than we did in favor of it. and -- now, did that mean that they changed their support for me? no, it didn't, as a matter of fact. and even though we did some things they really didn't like. on the other hand, o