. >> it's interesting to kind of see that when you talk to andre de men o, andre ludwig some of those guys who are basically, you know, self-taught. >> yeah, andre, yeah, i think he went to a community college and he was, you know, running a security -- he was i.t. security guy for a small company in new jersey and he discovered that somebody over the weekend had broken into his network and used it to stash a lot of pirated music and movies and he was able to clean it out and, you know, secure his network and his bosses said, okay, end of problem. but andre thought, wow, i and he went back and checked the system and people were rattling his doorknob all the time to do this kind of thing and is that someone in eastern europe is trying to deposit a lot of illicit material in his office in new jersey intrigued him so much that he set himself on a course where he's become one of the leading authorities on botnets of the world. >> did you spend a lot of time with the shadow server group -- talk a little bit -- what is shadow server? >> primarily, i spent time with andre and i also talked t