tannenbaum and it did not take off until he tapped one of his former classmates, this guy named andrew fredmanman comes along in 2000 and takes this firm from being $300 million to $13 billion. his track record is -- carol: that's huge. >> -- is really big. he is a very good investor. we were comping his returns relativee s&p or other value firms or hedge funds at large, and he really did beat. he annualized 7.5% over his tenure, including bad months when he wasn't even there, and we just try to take a full extra. he built it, but he is not the personality that you see often in investing. he stays in miami, florida, even though headquarters are here in new york. he kind of has got this child of the 1960's personality. he is obsessed with every trade that is put on, he is on around-the-clock, dialing up analysts. he is involved in the culture in a very important way. even though jeff tannenbaum was the founder, fredman was the heart and soul of the firm. unlike bill gross, who retired at 74, well past his prime, fredman steps away at his prime, which is never see. carol: early 50's? >> 53 years