the danger of scapegoating andrew lansley— the danger of scapegoating andrew lansley for today' nhs problemss problems... it is not really about scapegoating andrew lansley. he was the health secretary, the prime minister was david cameron, the chancellor george osborne, they were all in it 0sborne, they were all in it together and the party voted for it. those reforms were a mistake. they were largely unwound and they were regretful— were largely unwound and they were regretful but the idea that today' nhs is _ regretful but the idea that today' nhs is problematic simply because of a reform _ nhs is problematic simply because of a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years _ a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years agom — a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years ago... it a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years ago- - -— years ago... it is not 'ust because of that. years ago... it is notjust because of that. administrative _ of that. administrative displacement. - of that. administrative displacement. i - of that. administrative displacement. i would | of that. administrative - displacement. i

the andrew lansley reforms which — the andrew lansley reforms which were hopelessly misconceived, tooklot of money and then had to be reversed. and then covid on top of that, — reversed. and then covid on top of that, which has put us in this— of that, which has put us in this awful— of that, which has put us in this awful position for the nhs _ this awful position for the nhs in _ this awful position for the nhs. , ,., , this awful position for the nhs. , ,, ., ., this awful position for the nhs. , , ,, ., ., ., nhs. in response, shadow health secretary victoria _ nhs. in response, shadow health secretary victoria atkins - nhs. in response, shadow health secretary victoria atkins said, - secretary victoria atkins said, after ia years in opposition, labour's instinct is to politicise children's health rather than provide solutions and reform the nhs. but let's think about next week. the conservatives have joined virtually all of the opposition parties in the uk parliament in opposing those winter fuel payment changes. keir starmer says today he is prepared to be disliked, so next week

reforms, _ you talked with the andrew lansley reforms, if — you talked with the andrew lansley reformscentre it — where everything comes from the centre it is— where everything comes from the centre, it is not going to work. how can you _ centre, it is not going to work. how can you have — centre, it is not going to work. how can you have a national health service — can you have a national health service if— can you have a national health service if you don't have national policies — service if you don't have national policies. we service if you don't have national olicies. ~ :, service if you don't have national olicies. ~ ., _, , policies. we had community hospitals. — policies. we had community hospitals, we _ policies. we had community hospitals, we may _ policies. we had community hospitals, we may have - policies. we had communityl hospitals, we may have large policies. we had community - hospitals, we may have large scale practices with salaried doctor, rather than with a network contract, where doctors find exhausting, because they have to do business meetings after a long day.

to the coalition government in 2010, big structural reforms led by the then health secretary andrew lansleyg this review, that was done within days of labour taking charge by the former labour mp lord darzi. an independent review into the whole state of the nhs, talking about access to health care services, the performance talking about access to health care services, the performance of the nhs, and the quality of health care — any inequalities in terms of those three aspects. so this will provide the context for a bigger, longer term look at the nhs. part of what it is calling fixing the foundations. so a really central part of what the labour government is trying to do. in addition to their first steps, the short—term fixes of their policy, thousands of new appointments, evenings and weekend appointments. you can see why keir starmer is trying to present this very bleak picture of the state of the nhs, it chimes with everything we have heard about various other parts of the public sector. prisons, for example. blaming the conservatives. the tories are trying to defend their record. the la

is where you hear this idea, reflecting on the reforms under the conservative health secretary andrew lansleycoalition government... i think it's a familiar narrative now from keir starmer about what he's inherited, and that is certainly the case for the nhs. when it comes to the report which comes out on thursday, it's found some really difficult findings, especially in the care for children and young people. yeah, we have a hint of some of the findings, as you say, relating to children, expecting lord darzi to reveal that children are being let down by waiting more than six hours in accident and emergency departments in england last year. talking about waiting lists for children, and falling vaccination rates. so you can get a sense from those initial findings that we have access to at the moment of the range of issues lord darzi is looking into. keir starmer is saying, look, we have this initial strategy to free up appointments and bring in new slots for people to get treatment quicker, but in his words, we have to do the hard yards of reform as well, and that is where this independent rev

single out reforms in 2012 under the then health secretary andrew— under the then health secretary andrew lansleylar— now they are promising a similar ten now they are promising a similarten year plan now they are promising a similar ten year plan and a fundamental shift away from sickness _ fundamental shift away from sickness to prevention and trying _ sickness to prevention and trying to— sickness to prevention and trying to digitise the nhs. i think— trying to digitise the nhs. i think they have a challenge to try to — think they have a challenge to try to present how this will be presented. i think they also had — presented. i think they also had the _ presented. i think they also had the challenge of how and when — had the challenge of how and when money will be spent. we had wesi— when money will be spent. we had west rating talking this morning about in infrastructure, without putting figures — infrastructure, without putting figures on how much he would need — figures on how much he would need he _ figures on how much he would need. he has talked about capital— need. he has talked about

hear this idea of kind of reflecting on the reforms under the conservative health secretary, andrew lansleyreforms to the nhs under the coalition government. but i think it's quite a kind of familiar narrative we're hearing now from keir starmer about what he's inherited. and that's certainly the case for the nhs. and viewers in the uk can watch the full interview with the prime minister tomorrow at 9am on bbc one, the news channel and the bbc iplayer. a rare event took place today in london when richard moore, the head of mi6, and cia director william burns have appeared in public together for the first time at a security conference in london. mr burns, who has been central to efforts to reach a ceasefire in the middle east, said the us was working with other mediators to "refine" the existing framework for a deal. also discussed, ukraine 5 seizure of the russian territory in kursk, which was described as a "significant tactical achievement". let's have a listen. it's absolutely critical that we do sustain our support to ukraine and it's really difficult. it's hard. and particularly in eas

what he does do, i think, is particularly point the finger at the botched reforms of andrew lansley, came in and delivered what lord darzi is reported as saying is a scorched earth approach to nhs reform that led us paying billions for a top down reorganisation that nobody wanted and nobody voted for. and then the conservatives, having botched that reform, being unwilling to address nhs reform since because it's like the third rail, they dare not touch it. and that's not my view. i mean, robert jenrick, who at the moment is one of the front runners for the conservative leadership, he was admitting that himself, quite candidly, i thought admirably candidly. i thought admirably candidly. i thought in terms of spelling out the conservatives failure. so i think there are some conservatives who are willing to accept responsibility for, for their part in the nhs crisis , their part in the nhs crisis, but it is deeper. if it was, if it was just about the party politics. well, we've got a labour government now that and that, that will make a difference. but it is also about the substance of

but just before that we had the andrew lansley reforms, which upended everything. n the nhs, said , please don't do these nhs, said, please don't do these reforms. and david cameron actually nearly stopped it happening. and in his in his memoirs he said he wished he'd had but the lansley reforms did a lot of damage to the, to the structures of the nhs. so it's those three things. and during that period that's when we fell behind. i mean, i remember when the commonwealth fund, which behind. i mean, i remember when the corisfonwealth fund, which behind. i mean, i remember when the coris howealth fund, which behind. i mean, i remember when the coris how far:h fund, which behind. i mean, i remember when the coris how far:h fun(fallenh report, is how far we've fallen behind in cancer care and prevention. shocking actually . prevention. shocking actually. we're one of the richest countries in the world, and yet we are falling way behind other countries. yes, and i remember the time when we were we were number one in the european list of cancer outcomes. of cancer outcomes

. _ the former health secretary, andrew lansley, hopelessly...d. lord darzi describes it as a calamity without international precedent. a scorched earth approach to health _ precedent. a scorched earth approach to health reform, the effects of which _ to health reform, the effects of which are — to health reform, the effects of which are still being felt today. and at— which are still being felt today. and at the same time, they inflicted what the _ and at the same time, they inflicted what the report describes as the most _ what the report describes as the most austere decade in which the nhs was founded. crumbling buildings, decrepit— was founded. crumbling buildings, decrepit portakabins, mental health patients— decrepit portakabins, mental health patients in victoria era cell is infested _ patients in victoria era cell is infested with vermin. when we say they break— infested with vermin. when we say they break the nhs, that is not performative, just look at it. a lost _ performative, just look at it. a lost decade for our nhs, in which the c

national service, you can't simply hive off, as i'm afraid the conservatives tried to do under the andrew lansleyent to someone else and expect you not to be blamed if there are problems. so if you're going to have a nationalised system, you clearly have to have the politicians in control. i think you were right to point out that a lot of what the government was saying today, previous health secretaries have tried. i remember sajid javid, when he was health secretary, doing a whole speech about prevention. the difficulty with this stuff of course, is that doing any of the very sensible things, nigel was just saying, you meet electoral resistance, you meet electoral resistance, you know, you try moving free prescriptions back to 65 or 66 and you'll hit a wall of resistance. so whichever government eventually has to tackle this is going to find it hard going. >> nigel, how much enthusiasm is there in the labour party for using the private sector to help with the problems? because wes streeting has been quite open to this. keir starmer was very against it. >> well, i mean, certainly wes streeting ha

and i think to say that we all know that andrew lansley is top down, so—called reforms were a disastere on from that. so let's listen to what wes has to say. but let's but he hasn't said anything yet. he had the opportunity to say he's talking about care services. he's talking about integrated talk. it's all talk. well, to be honest, we're only ten weeks in, mike. >> yes, but he's had years. he's had years. i'm sorry. looking forward to becoming health secretary and should have come in bang with a plan to hang on a second. >> have you not read the darzi report? ara darzi? yes, i have. that's what we've been working on for the last dismissed. >> it hasn't been dismissed. it's been dismissed by a lot of the labour side. >> mike. it only came out last week. we haven't had a chance to implement it yet. yeah, but that is the blueprint. that is the. thatis is the blueprint. that is the. that is the report for the future. that is the that is the beveridge of the 21st century. very, very lukewarm in that speech. >> nothing in that speech about holding the pharmaceutical companies to account by

second, the disastrous 2012 top down reorganisation, led by andrew lansley, as the report states and it took a scorched earth approach to health reform. the effects of which are still being felt to this day. just imagine if all the time , effort and billions of the time, effort and billions of pounds wasted on dissolving and reconstituting management structures had instead been invested in services for patients, clearly the nhs would not be in the mess it finds itself in today. third coronavirus the damage caused by the pandemic has been plain to see, but what we didn't know until the darzi report is that the pandemic hit the nhs harder than any other comparable healthcare system in the world. patients in this country saw far more operations and routine care cancelled than anywhere else. it is not just that the conservatives didn't fix the roof while the sun was shining . roof while the sun was shining. they doused the house in petrol, left the gas on and covid just lit the match. that is why the backlog ballooned to 7.6 million today. when i use that metaphor in the house of commons

problems, you know, following a ten years of austerity, the covid experience, the big reforms that andrew lansleyyou do know the nhs was ring fenced. it didn't experience austerity and cuts in the same way as other departments. it was it was ring fenced throughout. it may not have risen to take me on on the numbers. >> the figures were 1%, 1.2%, 1.25% and for ten years it was under 2%. when it normally needs from 1948 to today, the average is 3.3 3.78%. it needs about 4% a year to keep its head above water. during that ten years, it had under 2%, and that's when we didn't recruit enough people, buy enough kit, do enough innovation stuff and all of the rest of it. and now the chickens are coming home to roost, so we know where we are . and i think, know where we are. and i think, you know, to say the nhs was broken during the sort of election campaign. it was sort of the hyperbole of the election and it was a nice soundbite and it was okay. but what i think streeting and others have got to realise now they are the government, they are the employers of 1.4 million people who they are going to have

of the conservative legacy, in particular those 2012 reforms under the then health secretary andrew lansleyocus on prevention rather than sickness. a couple of interesting things to point out. money, more money, yes, there is going to be investment in technology and infrastructure but i think it's more about reorienting budgets, targeting them towards investment into infrastructure rather than more money per se. and i think there is also an awareness that there needs to be an accompanying plan for social care in england. lord darzi talks about hospital beds being occupied by people waiting for social care but without a big plan for funding social care in england, that needs to come hand—in—hand with these reforms. to come hand-in-hand with these reforms. ., ~ to come hand-in-hand with these reforms. ., ,, , ., ., ., ., to come hand-in-hand with these reforms. ., ., ., ., reforms. thank you, leila. naga, you are ickina reforms. thank you, leila. naga, you are picking pp — reforms. thank you, leila. naga, you are picking up on _ reforms. thank you, leila. naga, you are picking up on a — refor