andthen china started to become a little more open. with the interaction is the foreign press. is not the whole story. activists that is just expressing. expressed through deals and read about it exchanged. >> again, now you hear it in private conversation. you won't see it so much in public media. and they are utilitarian. chinese culture and society. politics and running for office. that's true in every country. >> that's your experience? >> one of the things of a specific, it was not as if there were these bright lines. the used to be a clear distinction. he made a choice to become political. he wrote brilliantly about it in the new yorker. my favorite ever. in the period in which i was living there in the beginning of 2005 was a2005 was a very interesting time when people were self politicizing this technology was changing. you canyou can go online and have a voice and say something and identify and find people who would agree or disagree, choose your tribe, and so that was -- there was a time when we used to assume most people have been so poor that they did not care about