arancha gonzalez, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much.ng tariffs being slapped around all over the place. the mood music on international trade has changed very much, to your detriment. well, no, i wouldn't say so. i would tell you that there is a huge geostrategic rivalry between the us and china, and maybe it's not that bad that the biggest expression of this rivalry is international trade. why is that? because economies being so interrelated today, the fact that there is this huge rivalry and a contention to go unilateral is making a lot of the coalitions in every country mobilise international trade, so maybe it is not that bad. you're saying that they are sort of carrying out a proxy war through trade it might be worse otherwise? what i'm saying is that in trade, it may be a bit more rational than it would be in other areas. like militarily? like militarily, like diplomatic, like we've seen in climate change, for example. and why is that? because there's a system of rules today that makes countries and makes businesses think twice be

they can't do that, arancha gonzalez.ith africa, they say yes, you can send cocoa, raw commodities, the minute they wa nt to raw commodities, the minute they want to add value to those products, and finished them and send textiles or whatever, they see barriers, more ta riffs or whatever, they see barriers, more tariffs go up, and conversely, the other way, they have to allow their markets to be open to textiles from the united states, we are seeing a big dispute between washington and rwanda because rwanda said we don't wa nt rwanda because rwanda said we don't want your second—hand clothes, we wa nt to want your second—hand clothes, we want to protect the textile industry, what has america done? is as we are going to close markets to rwanda. and what has rwanda said, 0k, rwanda. and what has rwanda said, ok, do that, but we will stand, we will continue... that is an example ofa will continue... that is an example of a rich country bullying at poorer country. this is why the wto exists. take this to the wto and you will