i got this from a 2009 paper that he did with arthur evans. and so i think you had suggested it, we need a multi-prong approach where stigma is alive and well and where folks are comfortable with that, we need to hold them accountable. but we need to do some education as well, within the field as well as outside the field. and then i think we need to look at establishing new contexts and reaching out to non-traditional groups if you will, the recovering community. i believe that we could do more in reaching out to them. and i think that is, that is i tell you, i have been through national alcohol and drug addiction recovery month and its events and the testimonials that we see from individuals in recovery. and it's almost painful to see what daphne was saying in terms of a shamed-based approach to, to their recovery. and it, it really, i think it's, it's an area where folks in recovery are going to have to work with other folks in recovery to, to bring them along to a comfort level where individuals can then be free of that self-perception, in