ashley carman is senior reporter at the verge and lead writer at hot pod. e's no official audience data for podcasts, so how do you know what's doing well and what's not than? oh my gosh, on a show by show level, it is difficult. but this is the case for people who aren't just journalists, this is the case for advertisers, for brands, you're kind of going on the trust system a little bit. i don't want to bore everybody with all the technical things, but there are ways to do it on a technical side. but for us third parties, it's pretty hard. we're kind of relying on trust and then serving data as far as industrywide stats. starting at least with these all important radio results. matt deegan, creative directer at folder media, first of all, explain to us what exactly are the rajars? what they are are usually a quarterly snapshot of radio stations. so it tells you who's listening, what demographics, where people are listening, what they're listening on. so modern devices, fm radios, dab radios, or the internet. and it gives figures for every 15 minutes of pret

but about podcasts perspective, ashley carman, did the likes of spotify, amazon, audible, did they seets go up during the pandemic? yes, in terms of research and study, they went up every single years, they did see growth in the us. we're seeing a ton of investments and also on the radio side of things you see acts like club house, there are acts trying to disrupt radio, if you're trying to capture that same listening experience, i'm not saying they're not doing well but they are trying. but there's a lot of investment and we're seeing that pay off, in the sense that more people are discovering podcasts and just audio in general. matt, during the pandemic, news uk launched times radio, so how did they do? they did pretty well. they went in with just over 630,000 listeners a week and that is perhaps small fry compared to something like radio 4 with over 2 million listeners and they've done very well for a long time. and they weren't really sure what they'd get. they were very hopeful to get over 500,000, that was their aim and that's with they told their advertisers, and so, i think the