and i've always like t to write about real people who are in a situation whether it with avril herriman after world war ii and you have to create a whole new world order of things like nato and the world bank and therl marshall plan or a steve jobs who says okay, we're now in a digital revolution, we have to make it personal. ..rds, were able to think different, think out of the box. i want to try to explore the creative mind and how it works. >> host: one of them themes -- themes in your book seems to be a connect to spirituality. >> guest: everybody believed they were part of something

and i've always like t to write about real people who are in a situation whether it with avril herriman after world war ii and you have to create a whole new world order of things like nato and the world bank and therl marshall plan or a steve jobs who says okay, we're now in a digital revolution, we have to make it personal. ..rds, were able to think different, think out of the box. i want to try to explore the creative mind and how it works. >> host: one of them themes -- themes in your book seems to be a connect to spirituality. >> guest: everybody believed they were part of something larger than themselves. i remember sitting with steve jobs and i asked him why did you do what you do? and he said, life is like a river. you get to pick things out of the river, really cool things people have done, they put before you in the river, great devices or great ideas, but after a while you r great devices or great ideas but after a while you realize it is not how much you take out of the river but how much you put into the river, what you leave behind so your spirit is so manifest after you h

avril hairyman. and i remember at the end as we were finishing the book, his wife would let us sit by his bed and talk about -- and lovett, mccloy herrimanlan and acheson had both died. obviously, i talked to a lot of bolan and acheson's children and colleagues. but working with evan thomas my co-author on that book, we were both journalists. once again it was a chance to look at archives look at all the letters. acheson -- i'm sorry, herriman and lovett who were both the brown brothers herriman when lovett and hairyman were then going into government, wrote each other twice a day. so you got the conversation in the letters, and then you could go to governor herriman and say, okay what did you mean about this thing on laos when you wrote the lovett? and so one of the things evan and i were able to do in writing that book was combine the ability to go to the archives, new york historical society had the brown brothers/herriman archives. also then go to the people and say -- who were involved -- and say when you got that letter what were you really aiming at? and that's why i like this intersection that i've been able to be part of between