. >> president bander, what about you? how do you see the most challenging piece of this transition from conflict to post? i think the whole government was near collapse. >> near collapse? >> yea. so the people are living under very, very different conditions, so the hope when new leadership came was their expectation that things were going to change, but sometimes they expect that change to come immediately. so it is what you do in that transition that matters. i think for me what i have done is to be all-inclusive to ensure that even to come down what existed was to choose a cabinet for more practice. secondly, it was to be able to talk to the people. if the people are told the truth they will stand with you. in my particular place i have waited for people for 50 years, and i believe that leadership is a love affair. we must fall in love with the people and the people must fall in love with you and because of that -- >> we're going to remember that line. >> leadership is a love affair. >> so if they grow to trust you and

i don't spend much if any of my time bander bashing. the people i want to bash are us today who don't learn, i think, that all important lesson from the generation of the founders which is to look at lessons of experience, and do what mr. jefferson -- i believe in revolution every 19 years, but he did believe in conventions and actually scrutinizing the extent to which the constitution is working well and it's not. >> this is a lot of fun. i appreciate sandy's comments about lincoln. so i thought when i wrote this last book of mine which is not on sale today unfortunately, about what makes for great and bad presidents. and we do tend to focus on the great ones, but i want to restore some attention to the loser presidents, the bad once. and the federal society helpfully did a poll of 300 scholars, they do it every few years asking us to rank presidents and the one that's unchanged over the years, there's not a lot of fluctuation in political party. there seems to be a lot of agreement as to who were good presidents and the ones that were