phillip randolph's agent, bayard rustin. and each time he was told, john, that's too radical. at one point he said in his speech, he remembered him telling this, the people demand. they said no, no. that's going to make people nervous, so make your pick. so the contrast between the two is what i was hoping to get. >> well, there's no question that one of the instant takeaways of this book is that you are as critical of your own side, in some respects, as you are of the other side. >> procedurally. >> procedurally. >> and the other point i want to make is this. one of the things i get really bothered by are my colleagues who beat their chest about how brave they are by standing up to their opponents. i tell the right wing this. i tell the right wing that. well, the fact is that, you know, if you're barely picking on people who are never going to be with you, that's very useful because it just builds up your campaign contributions. >> right. >> but ted kennedy and jesse helms probably raised $100 million each for the other. one would criticize and then the other one would send o