>> guest: well, it was an offshoot of katharine's decision to bring ben bradlee over from newsweek to the managing--to the editorship of the post. and that had a secondary effect, which i don't think katharine ex--expected. the number-two person at--at the post under al friendly, the managing editor, was a guy named ben--ben gilbert and he really got upset because he had expected to--to move--ad--advance himself and he c--when bradlee was put over there, he saw that he--his career was gonna quickly terminate, which it did, in a couple of years. so gilbert was the man i had worked with mostly as picture editor and he just--he was--i was the--his easiest victim and we had a confrontation one afternoon and i said, 'ben, i'm not gonna take this any longer.' he says, 'it's you or me. you're fired.' well, i couldn't believe it. and i appealed all the way to katharine graham, who saw me at her home in georgetown and very sympathetically talked with me for three-quarters of an hour and finally shook her head sadly and said, 'well, johnny, i'm afraid that we've hurt ben gilbert as much as we'r