marshal cowen and ben ginsberg, thank you so much. appreciate it. >>> more on our breaking news, new signs that a fourth indictment for donald j. trump would be coming soon in fulton county, georgia. the former president campaigning right now in iowa. we're live in des moines next. your paint is really bad. what? i said, “best coffee i've ever had.” (slurps) should've used behr. sorry, sign where? no, i said, “should've used behr." today let's paint. right now, get america's most trusted painbrand at a new low price. behr. only at the home depot. [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing it for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergi

ben ginsberg, thank you, we are going to continue this conversation.about this indictment, how did rudy giuliani going from being a mob fighter and a man known as america's mayor to someone now identified as co-conspirator? one, in the special counsel's case against the former president. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ hey bud. wow. what's all this? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ but his vision dimmed with age. he had amd. i didn't know it then, but it can progress to ga, an advanced form of the disease. his struggle with vision loss from amd made me want to help you see warning signs of ga. like straight lines that seem wavy, blurry, or missing visual spots that make it hard to see faces like this one, or trouble with low light that makes driving at night a real challenge. if you've been diagnosed with amd and notice vision changes, don't wait. ga is irreversible. it's

this case with former trump white house press secretary stephanie guse from an election lawyer, ben ginsbergk you this. if you look at these threat -- threats, the former president has attacked the system and judges and made personal and public attacks. has he helped to give license on his own public attacks with this behavior? >> absolutely you can look to january 6 as a huge example. i know very few republicans want to upset donald trump in any way but why are there no republicans, most specifically people running, calling on him to put something out to say there should be no violence. please do not threaten anybody. please do not threaten the jurors. how is it that there are no republicans that are calling on trump to say something? i think that will also show voters who he is. he is staying quiet and allowing people to continue to be threatened. >> it's a good point because that's what people were asking for on january 6th, a public statement. i think many people were surprised to learn that under georgia law grand juror identities are listed in public court documents. i wonder if that l

last hour when i was talking to election attorney ben ginsberg, he reminded us that state cases, if trump were to be re-elected, he would be unable to pardon himself. what else is significant about the types of charges the fulton county prosecutor is considering? >> a few things. not only would he not be able to pardon himself, but the pardon process in georgia means that governor kemp would not be able to pardon him either. there's a pardon board, so it's a more complicated process. he also would not be able to shut down the investigation in the same way. in other words, trump could try to make some argument to courts in georgia that as president he can't be subject to a state indictment. but if he was president of the united states, he could order the attorney general, install an attorney general, someone like jeffrey clark, who would literally shut down jack smith's investigation. he can't do that to fani willis. she's an elected official in the state of georgia. but separate and apart from that, unlike the other state charge, there's a manhattan d.a. indictment that's also not a feder

. >>> and let's break it down with andrew mccabe and ben ginsberg.rump's lawyers say this is an accelerated time line and they can't be prepared. is that actually an accelerated time line? >> not particularly for a one defendant case in which you basically have three violations of law alleged. it is a big case, a case with a significant amount of discovery, but that sort of stuff is cut through every day in federal courts around the country. >> understood. okay. ben, mark meadows, his essential argument here, i should say his defense lawyer's argument, is that his duties as a member of the executive branch included what he was up to here including joining that phone call which -- in which the former president or the president at the time asked georgia top laebs oelection off to find those votes. but also speeding up the signature matching process by having the trump campaign pay for it. you're a lawyer here. does his argument that these fell under his duties as a federal official, does it stand? >> i think it will be pretty difficult to have that arg

to apply and may even reach delegations to stefficials, which would a dramatic change, as the ben ginsberg amicus brief explains. juste alito: thank you. chief justice roberts: justice sotomayor? juste sotomayor: counselor, could you deal with the examples, the historical examples ylleague spoke about as supporting his po, virginia's 3/5 rule, maryland's nineteenth amend rule? i think your brief does an adequate job on the story issue, but -- mr. katyal: so -- so the maryland one is just the amendment process, and that's leser, and that's just a totally different text and and certainly doesn't bear on the original meaninge elections clause. with respect to virginia, it absolutely cuts the other way. that's the 1830s. justice sotomayor: that's what i thought. mr. ty: so it's not the bruen, you know, time period of the founding, and we have ovion after provision start even before the founding with the articles of confederation which thk blow apart their historical theory. with respect to virginia, yeah, one person said this would and, you know what happened, james madison and stice of -- the

going to apply and y en reach delegations to state officials, which would a amic change, as the ben ginsbergmicus brief explains. ief justice roberts: justice sotomayor? justice sotomayor: cou, could you deal with the examples, the historical examples your colleague spoke about as supporting his position, virginia's 3/5 maryland's nineteenth amendment ? i think your brief does an equate job on the story issue, but -- mr. katyal: so -- so the maryland one is just about the amendment process, and that's leser, and that'just a totally different text and so on and certainly doest bear on the original meaning of the electionse. with respectrginia, it absolutely cuts the other way. that's e 1830s. justice sotomayor: that's what i th mr. katyal: so it's not the bruen, u ow, time period of the founding, and we have provision after ion start even before the founding with the ties of confederation which i think blow apart their historical theory. yeah, one person said this would violate the elections clause and, you know whatned, james madison and the justice of -- the chief j of the supreme court, jo