c-span: did you study people like benjamin cardozo at the university of virginia? >> guest: a little bit. to be fair, i wasn't much of a student. i was always at the very bottom of the very top of the class, and i got that way not by being a great student in a learning sense. most of these things i really read closely for purposes of this book. c-span: that's what i wanted to ask you, because you also quote woodrow wilson before he became president and jim landis. >> guest: these were all discoveries. i knew who many of these people were, but they were discoveries. the year and a half before i tried to write the book, that's who i was reading. i said, well, who can comment on these things? i was just reading. i read hayek, i read woodrow wilson, cardozo, holmes. there's a wonderful holmes compendium. c-span: you're talking about the son of oliver wendell holmes? >> guest: no, i'm talking about the one we know about. c-span: the justice. >> guest: the justice. c-span: the father was also a writer and had the same name. >> guest: right, but i'm talking about the supr