and bernie maddoff is a different story because he got away with it for so long. he to me dramatized what happens and we shrug and don't take perjury seriously and especially when law enforcement itself is so overwhelmed by everyone lying to them that they decide we're to the going to bother with just perjury cases. >> rose: so why do they do it. >> these people all did think they could get away with it. in some of the cases they came veries close. martha stewart came the closest to getting away with it. but you see in context, there are many other reasons. one is going to that point, they've all done thingses that they've gotten away with before. secondly, and that's very reinforcing. >> rose: do you think think they are above the law. >> i think so in most cases. very successful people just have a tendency sometimeses to believe that. but very telling he-- telling to me is at this level, these people are surrounded by what i would call enablers. they are surrounded by coworkers, people who report to them, people they've benefitted, people who depend on them for