meanwhile, the father of one of the nurse beverley allitt�*s victims says — 30 years on — lessons stilldummigan, who's the health correspondent for north west tonight, has this exclusive report. the health secretary orders an urgent investigation into how the nurse beverley allitt was able to murderfour babies in may 1993, it's may 1993, and beverley allitt has just been convicted of killing four children and attacking nine more at grantham and kesteven general hospital. after the trial, the government held an inquiry into what had gone wrong at the hospital. the clothier report came out in 1994 and it identified a number of failings. but a central finding was that because every death and collapse could have another initial explanation, and because nobody could believe that a colleague could deliberately harm children and babies, beverley allitt was able to continue in the unit for more than two months. the parallels with lucy letby are striking. while some senior colleagues did raise concerns about her. those in charge were apparently unable to believe that there might be a killer in t

but the closest comparison to letby is perhaps beverley allitt — also a nurse in her 20s, also working this time in lincolnshire. in 1993, allitt received 13 life sentences for the murder and attempted murder of infants. and we thought we would try and look at this to see how big the phenomenon was... criminologist david wilson has studied doctors and nurses who become serial killers. the person who kills within a healthcare setting has already developed the desire to kill before theyjoin the healthcare setting, and if you want to kill, of course you are going to identify people who are vulnerable, people whose deaths won't be noticed, and so, guess what? the people that serial killers target, by and large, are older people, or they target very, very young people, specifically in a neonatal unit, in this case, where again, small babies with chronic underlying healthcare, where their deaths won't be commented upon, or seen as being suspicious, because tragically, some babies born in that situation will die. thejudge led inquiry following beverley allitt�*s conviction in 1993 criticised

. —— beverley allitt.within a year and came back with a dozen recommendations. that inquiry did say that if there was someone determined to cause harm, systems may never be able to stop that. again, doctor harold shipman, the beginning of the 20005, convicted of killing 15 patients at, again an independent inquiry, that had six or seven report5 independent inquiry, that had six or seven reports over a number of years, looking at his actions, the fact he may have killed over 200 people, that inquiry found. the question i get is speed versus detail, and compelling people. the government said in this case it wants a quicker inquiry. —— i guess. we are expecting the sentencing, but again questions as to why lucy letby will not be appearing. yes. again questions as to why lucy letby will not be appearing.— will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there _ will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there is _ will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there is it's _ will not be appearing. yes. i mean,

as you say, you talked about some of the people in the profession, names like beverley allitt, haroldthat is very rare, but it must be distressing for other members of the medical community when this happens. you are absolutely right, it must be awful to be part of the team that lucy letby was part of and to know you worked alongside her. it is just unthinkable, isn't it? judith moritz interviewed a lead consultant, and he said that no—one wanted to believe it, but all the evidence started to point in a direction. it must be really tough, and as you say, it is incredibly rare for this kind of case to crop up and for people in this position of caring for some of the most vulnerable babies to carry out these kind of horrific acts. but, you know, processes need to be in place so that if and when it does happen, it can be spotted early and it can be stopped before it goes too far. dominic, thank you, dominic hughes, our health correspondent outside the countess of chester hospital. we have had a statement here on bbc news, we are bringing you the statements and reaction, we heard from the

beverley allitt, harold shipman and colin norris were all convicted of murdering their patients.ose who trusted him — elderly, vulnerable patients — and injected them with morphine. the bodies of nine of his victims were exhumed as part of the police investigation. he was jailed in 2000 and killed himself in prison four years later. she has been found with a quantity, that much, insulin in her. elderly patients were also the target of colin norris, a young nurse who went rogue. in 2008, he was found guilty of murdering four and trying to kill a fifth. but the closest comparison to letby is perhaps beverley allitt — also a nurse in her 20s, also working on a children's ward, this time in lincolnshire. in 1993, allitt received 13 life sentences for the murder and attempted murder of infants. and we thought we would try and look at this to see how big the phenomenon was... criminologist david wilson has studied doctors and nurses who become serial killers. the person who kills within a healthcare setting has already developed the desire to kill before they join the healthcare settin

and harold shipman. — cases of beverley allitt and harold shipman, after those cases changesexample, the reservations around the general medical— reservations around the general medical council were tightened up, deaths _ medical council were tightened up, deaths being referred to coroners after _ deaths being referred to coroners after harold shipman, that was tightened up. but still we see that lucy letby was able to carry out these _ lucy letby was able to carry out these awful murders and attempted murders _ these awful murders and attempted murders. what happened here was, this is— murders. what happened here was, this is a _ murders. what happened here was, this is a unit — murders. what happened here was, this is a unit that lost roughly, soften— this is a unit that lost roughly, soften the _ this is a unit that lost roughly, soften the tragic loss of three bables— soften the tragic loss of three babies a — soften the tragic loss of three babies a year normally, and they lost three — babies a year normally, and they lost three babies in a month. it is not like _ lost t

news archive: the former nurse beverley allitt has been found - guilty of murdering four children whoucy letby isn't the first health care worker accused of being a serial killer. news archive: today dr harold j frederick shipman was convicted of murdering 15 of his patients. you know, at the end of the day, i've worked with so many serial killers in my career, and all of them quite liked having the power to be able to decide who would live and who would die. because of course, that's the ultimate power for god. does lucy letby fit the profile of what you'd say is a health care serial killer? no, she doesn't. she is very social. she's very socialised, she has friendship groups. she has people in the hospital who, um, befriended her, mentored her. she is somebody that's seen not suspiciously. there's no evidence that she's fascinated by serial killers. i read the prosecution's opening account of the evidence and i thought, is that it? and i say that because i kept thinking there would be more. clearly it's circumstantial, and often murder cases are often solved by circumstantial eviden

you'll have heard, everyone's heard of harold shipman, beverley allitt.our patch? it's really difficult to believe, to accept. i think there'll be some time of reflection for everybody that's been involved as to what we've been involved in and what this means in the future. but it has been a really shocking investigation to be part of. and i really hope that i'm not part of anything like this again. you are watching bbc news, plenty more coming up, don't go away. live from london. this is bbc news. the uk government orders an independent inquiry, after a hospitalfailed to investigate allegations against lucy letby — the nurse found guilty of murdering seven newborn babies in her care. uk police investigating the murder of 10—year—old sara sharif, found dead in a house in the southeastern town of woking, have identified three people they want to talk to in connection with the inquiry. sara's father, urfan sharif, his partner, beinash batool, and urfan's brother, faisal malik. hurricane hilary heads towards north—west mexico before heading to california as

happening over and over again and chillingly, the letby case has many great similarities with that of beverley allitt1 and here we are, more than 30 years later. 1991 and here we are, more than 30 years later-— years later. why does this keep happening _ years later. why does this keep happening over— years later. why does this keep happening over and _ years later. why does this keep happening over and over - years later. why does this keep| happening over and over again? years later. why does this keep - happening over and over again? what protections are therefore whistle—blowers? liii< protections are therefore whistle-blowers? , , ., whistle-blowers? uk whistle-blowing law is extremely _ whistle-blowers? uk whistle-blowing law is extremely weak. _ whistle-blowers? uk whistle-blowing law is extremely weak. i _ whistle-blowers? uk whistle-blowing law is extremely weak. i think - whistle-blowers? uk whistle-blowing law is extremely weak. i think many l law is extremely weak. i think many people don't realise that. you often read in media that whistle—blowers are protected by the law, they are not.

i mean, we have myra west, myra hindley, rose west, beverley allitt and then, beverley allitt, and thengreat medical course, the other great medical murderer white. doctor murderer was also white. doctor shipman . but what nobody said at shipman. but what nobody said at that time is appalling. >> me, christie >> but forgive me, christie nobody mentioned ethnicity nobody mentioned the ethnicity at all. no, i mean, i remember the beverley allitt case, which was what, two thousand and seven, and that even an seven, and that wasn't even an issue. the times in issue. but the times were in high identity politics. i know, but the thing is, think of the sensitivities , though, in this sensitivities, though, in this country, christine. >> every time there >> every time that there is a muslim terrorist to know not link any part of the crime to their religion, well, look for example, the way that the rotherham the pakistan. >> yeah. the rape rape gangs were allowed to go unchecked because everyone was scared. everybody was terrified to mention their race. matthew laterza, why are views like this t

i mean, we have myra west, myra hindley, rose west, beverley allitt and then, beverley allitt, and thengreat medical course, the other great medical murderer white. doctor murderer was also white. doctor shipman . but what nobody said at shipman. but what nobody said at that time is appalling. >> me, christie >> but forgive me, christie nobody mentioned ethnicity nobody mentioned the ethnicity at all. no, i mean, i remember the beverley allitt case, which was what, two thousand and seven, and that even an seven, and that wasn't even an issue. the times in issue. but the times were in high identity politics. i know, but the thing is, think of the sensitivities , though, in this sensitivities, though, in this country, christine. >> every time there >> every time that there is a muslim terrorist to know not link any part of the crime to their religion, well, look for example, the way that the rotherham the pakistan. >> yeah. the rape rape gangs were allowed to go unchecked because everyone was scared. everybody was terrified to mention their race. matthew laterza, why are views like this t

news archive: the former nurse beverley allitt has been found - guilty of murdering four children whohealth care worker accused of being a serial killer. news archive: today dr harold j frederick shipman was convicted of murdering 15 of his patients. you know, at the end of the day, i've worked with so many serial killers in my career, and all of them quite liked having the power to be able to decide who would live and who would die. because of course, that's the ultimate power for god. does lucy letby fit the profile of what you'd say is a health care serial killer? no, she doesn't. she is very social. she's very socialised, she has friendship groups. she has people in the hospital who, um, befriended her, mentored her. she is somebody that's seen not suspiciously. there's no evidence that she's fascinated by serial killers. i read the prosecution's opening account of the evidence and i thought, is that it? and i say that because i kept thinking there would be more. clearly it's circumstantial, and often murder cases are often solved by circumstantial evidence, but there was no smoki

but what you find, if you look at the with beverley the parallel with beverley allitt she also allittlice will know there'll be all sorts of efforts , i imagine, all sorts of efforts, i imagine, with psychologists to try and interview lucia letby to find out why and get us extra clues as to let's check back. but what was the trigger point for that? and i say sometimes these people operate happens, and operate something happens, and then there's small time then there's this small time period, but there'll be so many parents that children die in these in these wars because they're very ill or very premature. but they'll want every reassurance that their child wasn't murdered . child wasn't murdered. >> mike neville, thank you for the moment. just some more reaction coming in this time from the parliamentary and health service ombudsman calling for significant improvements to culture and leadership across the nhs in the wake of lucy levy's conviction . on branding levy's conviction. on branding it one of the darkest crimes ever committed in our health service. >> absolutely harrowing. le

we saw the angel of death, beverley allitt in the early 1990s.course saw harold shipman as well, who was who was found out and sentenced in the year 2000. and i believe . and year 2000. and i believe. and now of course we have lucy letby. it seems that there's almost a pattern of behaviour here and lessons that have not been learned . been learned. >> well, look, tom, i think it's really important that we all remember that the vast majority of professional within the nhs andindeed of professional within the nhs and indeed everybody working there do a superb job for us all and it is tragic and appalling that where one person like letby and the ones you've mentioned is able to have such of an autonomy, if you like , a, you autonomy, if you like, a, you know, a control over situation that then, you know, murder and mayhem can ensue . i think from mayhem can ensue. i think from what we're seeing , the emerging what we're seeing, the emerging reports about this case do reveal that a number of professionals had deep concerns and there were clearly comp

beverley allitt murdered babies in the 90s. there was a big inquiry.actual changes will be made going forward to make sure that when people, experts , paediatricians that experts, paediatricians that understand exactly what was happening with babies, what's normal, what's not, we're not listened to and not just one, not just two, but seven of them were lot not listened to. surely changes need to be made . changes need to be made. >> and it's a reminder, of course, to all of us that there is no one profile for a serial killer. there was no one profile for someone who can commit evil acts like this . of course there acts like this. of course there is. this has opened up a renewed pubuc is. this has opened up a renewed public debate over whether the killers, those accused, those found to have committed heinous crimes, should have to go to the dock for their sentencing. we've saw that thomas cashman killer of olivia practical bell, jordan mcsweeney killer of zara aleena, also refused to sit there in the court and take their sentence . court and take their

beverley allitt . and you well. beverley allitt. shocks the whole know, this shocks the whole profession to a core nursing is about establishing trust with the community, with the public, with everybody . um, and i think with everybody. um, and i think we're all reeling from what's gone on, what's shocking us a lot as well. >> amanda and it shouldn't i suppose, but when you look at photographs of her, she is the picture of innocence. everybody talks about what a sweet natured woman she was. we even know in her home she had lots of teddy bears on her bed. all these photographs of children making it all the more shocking for us, but more so for the but much more so for the families of the babies she murdered and attacked . murdered and attacked. >> i think the thing that you need to realise when you're a neonatal nurse and when you're working in those sorts of areas , you sit day after day, after day at a bedside with parents and their little cherished loved ones, and you establish such relationships . what you do at relationships. wh

do you think that the reason that it took longer for lucy letby to be caught than beverley allitt is why are you speaking in absolutes reason absolutes? the reason it's a complex case with lots of factors and i've given you some evidence you say that you're evidence and you say that you're rejecting i gave rejecting the evidence. i gave the a the evidence, i gave you a statistics. what you make of statistics. what do you make of it? i made the evidence that you give you've give me two cases, and you've said two said that in two cases, two different things happen. the point cut in here. point i'm. let me cut in here. >> is my, uh, to be very >> it is my, uh, to be very clear here, let be is a depraved individual. it is totally despicable that she was not caught. and we must find out why . but i think what offends me most is the idea that because of her colour, it is being used as an attack on all white women. now, do you accept if someone were to do that with an asian terrorist or a black murderer , terrorist or a black murderer, there would be riots on the streets of this country? if

do you think that the reason that it took longer for lucy letby to be caught than beverley allitt is why are you speaking in absolutes reason absolutes? the reason it's a complex case with lots of factors and i've given you some evidence you say that you're evidence and you say that you're rejecting i gave rejecting the evidence. i gave the a the evidence, i gave you a statistics. what you make of statistics. what do you make of it? i made the evidence that you give you've give me two cases, and you've said two said that in two cases, two different things happen. the point cut in here. point i'm. let me cut in here. >> is my, uh, to be very >> it is my, uh, to be very clear here, let be is a depraved individual. it is totally despicable that she was not caught. and we must find out why . but i think what offends me most is the idea that because of her colour, it is being used as an attack on all white women. now, do you accept if someone were to do that with an asian terrorist or a black murderer , terrorist or a black murderer, there would be riots on the streets of this country? if

and as danny shaw was indicating, another was indicating, there's another one beverley allitt, one oft, the the names 20 years the remember the names 20 years ago or so. ago or 50. >> ago or so. >> again, another baby killer as well. >> well, this is the other thing. mean, focusing so thing. i mean, we're focusing so much on the victims, rightly much on on the victims, rightly so, there will be so, in this. but there will be pregnant mothers up and the pregnant mothers up and down the country worried who they country worried about who they can it shatters trust can trust. it shatters trust right the board. and right across the board. and that's she to be given that's why she has to be given the swiftest and the most thorough justice and thorough justice available. and she be in the dock today i >>i >> i remember when my kids were young you know, if you'd go young and, you know, if you'd go to spain on holiday or whatever , and then the hotel would say , , and then the hotel would say, we a babysitting we all offer a babysitting service . and i remember us service. and i remember us bo

we heard that with beverley allitt. we heard that with harold shipman.. another i'd like to talk another thing i'd like to talk about, catherine, is, this, about, catherine, is, is this, i think unfair situation think grossly unfair situation where now she won't even have to face the music in the dock. she has the option to opt out. so i know that alex chalk, the justice minister, has been talking about changing that law, and think we should get and i really think we should get behind because to dodge behind that because to dodge just this in as as being just this in as far as being facing family here in the facing the family here in the charges, looking them in the eye here the devastation of their here in the devastation of their victim statements that in court surely we must change that law to give parents and victims the right to a voice . right to a voice. >> it seems beyond belief. doesn't it? it's like the final insuh doesn't it? it's like the final insult that after the unspeakable misery and horror she's visited upon these families , she gets to

if people say same the >> if people say same was the same about beverley same was said about beverley allitthe was injecting bags with with injecting saline bags with with insulin , so it was killing them insulin, so it was killing them insulin, so it was killing them in a different way. but even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are rent way. but even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are people 1. but even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are people whot even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are people whot eve should there are people who who should have danger have been alive to the danger at the time. >> p- p.- >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done a on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done a lot on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done a lot cthis.ok, we've done a lot on this. you letby kind knows the letby everyone kind of knows the story by now, and it is absolutely it? absolutely bleak, isn't it? we're a lot we're goi

if people say same the >> if people say same was the same about beverley same was said about beverley allitthe was injecting bags with with injecting saline bags with with insulin , so it was killing them insulin, so it was killing them insulin, so it was killing them in a different way. but even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are rent way. but even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are people 1. but even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are people whot even so, insulin, so it was killing them in a (are people whot eve should there are people who who should have danger have been alive to the danger at the time. >> p- p.- >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done a on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done a lot on. look, >> yeah, david, i'm to going i'm going done a lot cthis.ok, we've done a lot on this. you letby kind knows the letby everyone kind of knows the story by now, and it is absolutely it? absolutely bleak, isn't it? we're a lot we're goi

we must leave nothing to chance in minimising the opportunities open to another beverley allitt .ell, i will leave it to your viewers and listeners to see if they agree with that or whether it was just words i guess. >> peter the point would be is that as it said there, to minimise the opportunity , these minimise the opportunity, these people might say, well this it's that was 30 years ago, you know , you can't never guarantee that these things will never happen again . but the fact that nothing again. but the fact that nothing happened for 30 years would indicate that maybe lessons were learned and that it's impossible to stop it altogether. what would you what would you say to that? >> number one, this report was only letby only 21 years before letby committed her atrocious acts. and that's not all my evidence . and that's not all my evidence. okay. there is more words from the statement of the health secretary who said the clothier report identifies and criticises failures of management and community actions in the hospital . and it is important hospital. and it is important t

beverley allitt, who i've mentioned.here are others who have been convicted, people like colin norris and ben gay and if we begin to understand that , we can and if we begin to understand that, we can begin to think about how and one of the things about how and one of the things about this case that we absolutely must not forget, i think, is the unsung heroics of those doctors who recognise something very wrong was going on and wouldn't back down. and they're one of the best. the reasons that today i think , you reasons that today i think, you know, we have a guilty verdict. then we had children protected . then we had children protected. then we had children protected. the thing is, is there an opportunity to do that earlier in this exchange? >> james? it's shocking . james, >> james? it's shocking. james, let me cut in here because it's absolutely shocking. you make a series points. series of really good points. yes, absolutely. credit to yes, absolutely. all credit to the doctors raised alarm the doctors who raised th

settings, you know, very often we forget that this is happening when in the early 1990s we had beverley allitte , benjamin had others. the nurse, benjamin gaynor as well . and often i gaynor as well. and often i think there are ways in those health care settings that their crimes can be prevented but they can only be prevented if lessons are truly learned. and it's time now not just for the empty mantra of lessons learned, but but to learn the lessons and to implement them. yeah. >> and as you say, we probably won't ever know the why when it comes to lucy, but i suppose it's a legitimate question to ask why? why the concerns of respected and serious doctors were not taken seriously and trying to understand the mindset there because it certainly seems as though there was this suggestion that it could be bullying, that this was a power play, these were powerful doctors. this was a sweet young seem innocent nurse, but that was perhaps just an innocent under understandable assumption .then under understandable assumption . then you can see the why a bit more justifiably, can't you, than you can wi

with this case is i mean, because i covered i remember back in my very, very early days, the beverley allittve still got people coming out who know her really well saying we can't believe this. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and that we never got that with allitt and that just adds another dimension to it really a troubling dimension. i'm not saying you need to doubt the conviction , but you just it just conviction, but you just it just leaves a very odd taste in your mouth, doesn't it? you just see what's going on. so what feels sorry for her parents who will be getting abuse , so sorry for be getting abuse, so sorry for her child . her child. >> you know, she's their only child. yeah >> and by all accounts, she had a childhood. a very happy childhood. >> mean, people will >> yeah. i mean, people will always look for sort of childhood in in the explanations for think you can for this. i don't think you can explain evil way. the explain evil in this way. the thing we need to understand more than anything is how it was allowed to go on for so long. that for me is critical. i don't think ever get the th