i mean, the bible is timeless, we believe. >> does understanding of the bible change over time?> oh, of course it does. but then -- but i wouldn't use that to then just cast the whole thing and to put a big question mark over it and say, "none of it, we can ever be sure about." >> right. >> like, we can be sure what the bible teaches about various things. and i would say that, when you really get into looking at those passages, i don't -- they're pretty clear. >> so, according to your reading of the bible, what is the role of women in the church and then in the home? >> so, god gave two commands at the beginning of creation. he gave a command to -- you know, to fill the earth, to subdue the earth, and also to be fruitful, multiply, and to fill it. men and women in the home have different, you know, roles in doing that. it doesn't mean that there are, like, rules that the man is always the provider and the woman is always to be at home doing that. it just means that there's a natural kind of tendency toward that. >> and women's role is what, then, in the home? >> well, obviously,

and following the actual literal words of the bible. it seemed that it broke into three groups. talk to me a little about how that came. and how that came there. how did they divide up between the ashkenazi's. in the set of reform and conservatives and orthodox. the first one that you said it actually came from brazil from the coasting town. it was taken over by the dutch in the large jewish community in holland who then established themselves in brazil but than within the portuguese sees that community and they were still persecuting jews so they escaped. and possibly accidental anti- u.s. harbor. and they founded the congregation in israel which still exists on central park west. the synagogue. and it is orthodox if you go there today and the high holy days. you will see that they where top hat and tails in tennis shoes. and so that was the first division. there were many different ethnic divisions among jews. and they formed their own society. but i think the answer to your question as an has to do with this aspect of american judais

for bible believing christians. we are seen the rise increasingly of a post- christian left and right. on the whole that is what we are seen. there are secular ways of thinking. and acting and behaving and misbehaving. in the public square. unless god grants us a special election and i'll think that will stop in the near future. this is a new normal. we've to work to make it not the new normal. it is the chance of this is the new normal. our society will lose much of what is good if it rejects the christian aspect of its heritage. such as the teaching on human dignity. i want to encourage us to embrace this moment. as a difficult moment. but instead of slouching away in withdrawal on the one hand or charging it to an angry activism. maintain the christian commitments and composure. in our christian calling. and as we land the plane now. where jesus have just been crucified. he appears to his disciples. they are afraid. they are in a defensive path says. afraid for their own lives. and jesus appears to them through l

and following the actual literal words of the bible. it seemed that it is a broken group, the reform that came later, the orthodox and the conservative. so, talk to me about how that became, how they divided up between this and then the other jews on the conservative orthodox. >> the first jews come as you said came from brazil. from the coastal town which was taken over by the dutch. there is a large jewish community in holland who then established themselves in brazil but then, the porch goal sees that community in the portuguese were persecuting jews. they escaped and failed, possibly accidentally into new york harbor in 1654. they founded the congregation of israel which still exists on central park west, it's the spanish portuguese synagogue. it is orthodox to if you go there today on high holy days, you'll see that people wear top hats and tails and tennis shoes. so, that was the first division between those two tribal ethnic origins. there were many different ethnic divisions among jews, polish, hungarian, they formed their own s

we also know that you regard the bible as a foundation stone of your thinking.w canadian philosopher, paul thagard, has said about what he sees as the weakness in your argument. he says, "peterson assumes that the only alternative to religious morality is some form of totalitarianism or despondent nihilism," but secular ethics have flourished since the 18th century and even before, he talks about david hume, immanuel kant, jeremy bentham, you don't seem to get any real importance to other secularists. i don't think that's true at all. i have great respect for enlightenment doctrines and it is clearly the case that our unfortunate situation politically right now is the consequence of something of a marriage between his old stories. the enlightenment doctrines upon of which countries like england are founded. i'm a scientist with many published works and so i'm perfectly aware of, despite the criticisms of that particular philosopher, perfectly aware of the utility of the scientific and enlightenment approach. but to think that humanist values, let's say secular v

what is about the bible you can appeal to possibly to suggest that slavery is wrong? >> [inaudible] prof. harris: ok, ok. so there are passages in the bible that suggests there's something intrinsically wrong about owning another human being. right? you guys know if you have ever studied the good book, there are issues in the bible that condone slavery. right? so this is kind of interesting. you have northerners are arguing that slavery is a sin because the bible says it is. you have southerners saying that, hey, there are people in a -- in these ancient cultures who owned slaves, and jesus said it was ok. this is what the southerners will write and speak about. there's a term i want you to write and i should have put it on the powerpoint. but i didn't. moral suasion. a s i o n.s u if i am wrong, let me know. you won't? ok. if you do that, i will pull andrew jackson, he said there are multiple ways to spell words. but as my favorite jackson quote. but moral suasion is the idea that you will convince slaveholders that slavery is a sin, is morally wrong. it is a tactic

that never occurred to me so that i went into the chronological bible. it changes the whole perspective and actually it is much less confusing than reading the bible. but a special friend of mine because the subtitle of the book is what i thought i had the answers god change the questions. and in your own town to talk about religion what the others might think when you go to africa and with those best conversations everywhere to share some of those. and by ogilvy that chapter of the senate. i going to a 20th time to that. or in the prayers of little bit of direction or forgiveness are working with others that has been a tremendous help to me. and those that stand out from this year and this summer

no word on a motive either. >>> bible study is an activity designed to brieople together.ut at one northern virginia community, the practice is splitting folks apart. according to the freelance star in fredericksburg, an apartment co is threatening to evict semi-retired pastor kenne hauge if he continues hosting bible stmeies. the apa says the pastor pressured tenants to join and de them feel uncomfortable. a nonprofit group that protects religious freedom is defenng e 86-year-old pastor and accusing the complex of di rimination. the pastor who caused an uproar, meanwhile, saying that black america hasost its soul during his controversial eulogy at aretha franklin's funeral isn't back down. the backlash was swift after reverend jper williams jr. also said black women were incapable of raising sons alone. some took that as a criticism of franklin herself, who was a single mother of four boys. many called his words inappropriate during a celebration of the queen soul. here's part of how he defended those comments today. >> now, it's been too many women who have raised excell

the bible been to get. to the debate on it i think i want to go to the law not to put it but it would mean that you tell me if you. believe that we are there live. when i will follow the bible didn't look awful as i did when they were. on the market i think a lot of them not only knew of the back side to side of us from washington in the days to us i'm going just fine until she get border and something but has to have that they've managed to bury a man with. the border. to show us and i said glenn they include the following bottom of my case i don't want them to but at the moment. i'm a little like a mad to. get the photo modern. nozzle of the borderline little boy. my own mother doesn't recognize the role hinge of genocide or even wrote in jazz in this city the word itself is under a tacit by. simply cold muslims or terrorists and. we're trying to arrange an interview with our own the sun sochi the state council of my own mother nobel peace prize laureate months in reply to our interview request we receive

traditionally, heavily democratic areas in the bible -- democratic counties in the bible belt switchedto nixon. compared to 1948 and 1956. would seee way they it in 1960 or 1961. in the popular vote, it is hard to gauge anti-catholic losses versus catholic gains. one calculation had kennedy losing 4.4 million protestants, gaining 2.9 million catholics. however, the total number of votes in the electorate was -- electoral college that kennedy lost was relatively small because the bible belt states he lost did not have many people. carrying catholic cities and the catholic suburbs gave kennedy far more votes in the electoral college then he lost. he gained on the electoral college. furthermore, if you overlay the 1968 election on the 1960 election, a different pattern emerges. if we leave out the deep south, the states voting for george wallace, the rest of the country shows an almost complete repeat of the 1960 election. nixon, of course, was the republican candidate both times. the democrats had replaced the catholic kennedy of 1960 with protestant humphrey of 1968. he would perform po

bible. yet up. six is growing palm oil fruit is not sustainable and other crops provide a livelihood for generations. but these are going to. get it to go do. farmers tell us apart. tried repeatedly to acquire this land but without success the communal lure of the village forbids the conversion of forest into palm plantations anyone who breaks these laws is banished from the village. fifteen hundred kilometers away on another indonesian island. the dying people also resistant plantation. in this village believe that the forest is home to the god they consider the forest to be home and they won't allow anyone to destroy it. but that doesn't stop representatives of companies from coming here regularly making big promises to locals trying to tempt. people down it obvious going up or they may. be at the but they value. so much. that i. did out as one. but to many small farms there is no alternative. yeah well i'd moment i live in a line along the line one of the gotta like it in my hand if you had a gun

sometimes they would bring big canvases with images painted from the bible. they were appealing to people who had not seen an image of any kind for years and then they would see this image painted from the bible and it was quite remarkable for them. these preachers also knew how to work the emotions and they would emphasize the urgency of getting saved and accepting god. they would work people up and start speaking in tongues or they would laugh or cry. sometimes they would get down on all fours and start working like a dog area the preachers would encourage this and say yes bark satan up a tree. the word would spread through the meeting that someone is getting the spirit on them. people will come running over and watched someone barking like a dog than they would get the same feeling. until it became a great enthusiasm and general wildness. the traditional preachers and new england thought this was utter blasphemy. this was fanaticism more than religion. the way to get saved to them, was to pray to god and let him do the work. it was not to go out and try to

although the christian commission has been remembered as an agency that distributed bibles and other religious reading material. it did so much more. it also engaged in activities ranging from supplying fresh food to troops, teaching black soldiers, all in an attempt to bring these men to the lord. the commission chairman suggested" there is a good deal of religion in warm shirts and a good beef steaks." the u.s. sanitary commission was formed in the summer of 61 as an organization that attended to complement the army's medical bureau. from its inception, the sanitary commission concerned itself with problems in the army ranging from sanitation, drainage, but also diets and medical care. you probably remember, your readings this week included writings from walt whitman outlining his time as a nurse during the civil war. he did serve as a delegate in the christian commission. we also had readings from mary livermore, who worked on behalf of the sanitary commission. although the organizations engaged in similar activities, each group maintained distinct goals. the secular sanitary comm

>> a whole bible is on here?es, the lost books of apollo. >> well, reverend stout and his wife,en they left nasa, just kind of vanished from the pages of history. >> until a court puts them under a microscope. >> you're saying that her intentions were sinister? >> and the value of each tiny bible -- out of this world. >> items that have gone to the moon can command six or seven figures. >> if you do the math, that's a lot, a lot of money.

. >>> a battle over a bible study is splitting a community in northern virginia. cording to "the freelance-star" in frederi fredericksburg," they may evict kenneth hauge if he runs bible study. a nonprofession group that protepr sotects religious freedom defending the poastor. >>> months after sarahrs san was asked to leave an accident, the restaurant is stilleeling consequences, positive and negative. the restaurant is getting calls about it. and the tourism board is using emergency funds to boost its online marketing campaign to try to create more positive coverage. >>> a man is in jail after breach at tcurity white house. the secret service says the man jumped over a bike aackund 8:00 last night. he was quickly arrested. >>> just down the street at the capitol, people were celebrating lar day little early. >> there was a concert just capitol.of the and darcy spencer has the sights and sounds from the labor day concert. >> reporter: thel nationa symphony orchestra, on stage ontside the u.s. capitol for the annual labor dayrt. ♪ ♪ t crowds are turning out on the

i study the bible from genesis to revelation. i know exactly what's going to happen to this country, to israel and all the other countries. there's nothing from this media, from all media that all i do is check them about the rothschild and illuminati. texasrobert calling from on the republican line. caller: good morning/ i think trump is doing a great job. is trying to disturb this country. this country was founded on christian values. they want to destroy this country. with same-sex marriage and gender and everything -- the bible says god created man and woman. thiswant to destroy country. this is the greatest country in the world. if you don't like it, leave this country. all: we would like to thank of our guests and all of our callers this morning. join us again tomorrow morning when "washington journal" comes back at 7:00 a.m. right here. have a good day. we will see you tomorrow morning. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

i thank you will enjoy not much is the bible but i will go find them now. thank you for coming. thank you number one for breitbart. breitbart, thank you for every day. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> hello. nice to meet you again. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] it's nice that you came down from new york. did you take the train? [inaudible conversations] it's nice that you came down [inaudible conversations] thank you. nice to meet you. >> nice to see you again. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] what do you do, art? oh. we need a law. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] what a nice outfit that is. you are so pretty. beautiful name. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [in

without tears funeral without god and i thought how sad and lonely i cannot speak to george schultz bible say two things first thank you for sending us on an unforgettable mission and second we must succeed in her quest for peace and now back to africa. the plate is picking me up so the first time with first american meeting with gorbachev this is part 35i had eight hours to think about our one hour meeting. gorbachev will package soviet empire much more effectively than any of his predecessors. that disarming smile making unpleasant point to announce to to step establish real communication i didn't get the feeling he had to prove different pc self-confidence turning to me and chatting from in chatting from time to time as he was not worried about anything differing from a lack of total knowledge the comrade brings the general secretary does not bible but it beats the hell out of some of his predecessors (yes a large very prominent birthmark on his head because of his presentation it is something that you notice all the time. i predict it will help him at home to show the west much more r

up your bible study and act for america.ze the nation to stand together and we need to fight to win. you need to know why? our enemy is fighting to win. we are fighting to reason with each other. we are fighting to play nice, maybe we can win them to our side. you need to understand they are fighting you to win. unless you have a winning attitude, nothing is going to change. you need to fight to win. you need to fight, never give up think of the greatest winner of our nation right now, president donald trump. [applause] president donald trump, ran for the presidency of the united states and he fought to win has he knew he was at war. in order for him to win, he had to defeat 16 contenders. not be nice to them, and not talk to them, defeat them in order to win the nomination. when he won, he had to proceed hillary and everybody, he had to win. that's exactly the winning attitude every single one of us need to have. we are at war. we need to rise and our nation, rise like our founding fathers rose. rise like they rose and beat

when i was little the bible did with the ones i did when they were. unloaded i think a lot of them longingly. side the side of us from a little washed the dishes the dish your son going just scientists you get border and something but has to hide that they've managed it very man to. be crossed the border. she was admitted and the said clinic includes the following bottom of my case i don't want the. bottom of the. mother's heart of the blood. photo monday. because a lot of the borderline little boy. doesn't recognize the russians or genocide or even wrote in jest initiative the word itself is under attack by. simply called muslims or turner. we're trying to arrange an interview with the son sochi the state council of mind ma a nobel peace prize laureate months in replying to our interview request we received an invitation to join the media. and even though we understood we just had the official position of the authorities it was the only way to film at least something in rocky and stayed close to journalists spanked then. you know. you see that. with

should guard spent around a quarter of a century working on his bible a magnet opus bridging the worlds of art and writing. she girls friend french painter henri matisse likewise illustrated literature as seen in the series inspired by love letters written by a portuguese nun the portrait show the progression of her emotions in the course of her clan to stand affair with the french army officer. was a prolific creation of illustrated books for the master a welcome opportunity to experiment with alternative means of artistic expression. the exhibition in your inner comprises four hundred works by eighteen artists lent by a private collector and on show to the public for the first time it runs through mid november. and you can always find many reports about art and culture on our facebook page and there's also much more to discover in our your next instagram account asir on next time under them and for watching and goodbye. next time on your i'm a. park in cathedral fame there's the burial place of embrace seana back in september one thousand nine hundred seventy eight it became the first

when i will follow the bible did look for that it went to. someone that i think allowed them to not only know about side the side of us from the washington issue the days your phone calls just scientists you get border and some people has to hide that they've managed to bury a man if. there was the border. to show us a committed and the such plan to include the fellow bottom of my case i don't want the. bottom of the white community. to get a lot of thought on monday. was a little a little boy. my own mother doesn't recognize the role hinge of genocide or even wrote in jazz in this city the word itself is under a tacit. here that simply called muslims or terrorists. we're trying to arrange an interview with the sun sochi the state council of mind ma a nobel peace prize laureate. in reply to our interview request we received an invitation to join the media. and even though we understood we just had the official position of the authorities it was the only way to film at least something in russian state clues to journalists back then. you know t

of a tame a barber teaches license i would buy most of the animal bible chicago for a t.v. show you almost got for me to do was go to the marley would be me brother please i was going to say we were traveling through self coda. and met a fellow who's a native american who is part of the dakota lakota sioux nation ok and he runs and he started on the rez because there's a lot of poverty on the reservation so like you he said you know what i'm going to start a business on the reservation to all the young people can say you can have your own business. he just said the same thing pretty much just you know there's no barber shop you did all of that at a time when it was probably the most difficult to do that and the economics of it yes and no yes and no cigar those one of the good cities in the world where fifty different. sales african-americans were devoted to gangbang so as a lot of things they keep us apart said the barber shop is not just an easy thing to do just you know powerful to. buy a box it's a lot of different factions that have to do with just business. to really p

although the christian commission is not -- is remembered largely as an agency that distributed bibles and toer christian materials reinforces, it did so much more. they supplied fresh fruit to the troops and taught black soldiers, all in an attempt to bring these men to the lord. noted, theretewart is a good deal of religion in a good shirt and a warm meal. the uss c was formed as an organization to complement the army's medical bureau. from its inception, the sanitary commission concerned itself with problems in the army that ranged from sanitation, drainage, but also to diets and medical care as well. you probably remember your readings for this week included not just writings from walter during theske war.as a nurse at the commission sanitary strove to save men's lives while the christian commission placed a premium on saving men's souls. 1861, delegates from the ymca chapters in the north met at the headquarters of the new york ranch. they two days of meetings 12 delegates. january 13 of 1862, the executive committee issued a circular that outlined an eight-point program that was

smack in the middle of the bible belt. but now, cargo planes buzz in and out of pope air force base. all past the confines of the city sprawls the immense ft. bragg, home of david shannon. his house was here, a few blocks off-base. the major, his wife joan, and their four children. it was july, 2002. like a sauna that night, so hot and humid. and then a light rain that cooled it down again. david and joan watched a movie on tv, fell asleep. and then -- >> i don't even remember hearing the first shot. i remember something woke me up. >> and then you heard a shot? >> and i know whatever woke me up, i know my ears were already ringing. and i turned the light on. and i see that he's shot. you know, it shocks you. never, ever forget that image. that's burned in my brain forever, no matter how much i try to -- here is the person i love. he's dying. [ sirens ] >> and by the time the police and the ambulance wailed up to the door, it was too late. david shannon, just 40, was dead. all it took was a look, in fact, for lead detectiv

bible kendell e discuss advancing the nuclearization with president. president moon and i build trust with each other our progress towards a peaceful and prosperous korean peninsula will become foster. home bond or you wonder don't be a co-op complete denuclearization and the establishment of peace on the korean peninsula is an important agenda good as it is a completely new resolution that could be various challenges and difficulties however chairman kim jong un and i share trust and friendship. relations between the two koreas do seem to be improving but real progress in the region will depend on convincing the us that the north is serious about getting rid of its nuclear weapons. for let's go straight over to seoul where our correspondent probably on catch is standing by for us he's been covering the summit fabio how significant is this deal between north and south korea is there much substance there or is it largely symbolic. to some part it was significant. both sides also signed military agreement and for example it included that there will be an

when i will follow the bible did it with or without it with it. and some of it i think a lot of them along the way. side the side of us or them a little washing dishes that is your son going just scientists you get border and something but has to have that they've managed to bury a man could. be crossed the border. she was admitted and the said clinic includes the following bottom of my case i don't want the validity of the monotonic. bottom of the why i could not. get the photo mother. was a little bored out of a little boy. my own mother doesn't recognize the role hinge of genocide or even wrote in jazz in this city the word itself is under a tacit by. simply called muslims or terrorists. we're trying to arrange an interview with the sun sochi the state council of mind ma a nobel peace prize laureate. in reply to our interview request we received. an invitation to join the media. and even though we understood we just had the official position of the authorities it was the only way to film at least something in russian state closed to journalists

the composer meter man i didn't you know about the bible says your mom came pozole he demanded he did it for the pleasure mr. you know what it's good to sort of poison he is seeking permission hostie to get well. first of. all. right. thought. it was thought of so there was no there were only me a supermodel talking to a german isn't the only means because in a knowledge of. the he did. he did. some the whole. thing for me to and i mean to sit on my side singing what he. wants and of course i mean he means you are disruptive to talk. talk talk. and that they will check only not to tell you know you'll be open to. them up there or. the one hundred people in the senate when i'm president doesn't. do as a for them not to call on if you don't keep you don't look too funny because it just sits at the circle to the street i'll tell you to take. them to the non-verbal tools and still to salute all the wonderful those of them out there all morning welcome to the national people of his are so positive someone unless you call the actual cost of spending that much. of the costs will sink and you

scaping from something finding our way out is that obviously we associated on the one hand with the bible and the exodus of the israel lights from egypt. but when you're in greece for example you see it written in every subway station many clubs and bars have adopted the name exodus. that fascinated me and that's often. on the one hand you have this idea of a group that's running away their corporate fleet leaving one place and moving somewhere else in. it on this and on the other this process that takes place more in the mind. is often coupled with all step out of your body into another dimension and to this technique trance or ecstasy taking off comes up and all that test next half or less gets very much about a group experience it includes going to new and past the point of exhaustion with the audience. and so that's like a journey to. a journey that lasts two and a half hours involving captivity then finding a way out and escaping it raises questions such as what we're fleeing from and where to exodus is intense and heavy going and for now at least it will be the last production that

. >> ted cruz, he comes in bible high, bible high, puts the bible down and then lies to you.e're liable to wake up one morning and donald if we were president would have nuked denmark. >> i watched ted cruz this morning, oh, i can't listen. so dramatic. can't watch. >> donald, you're a snibling coward. leave heidi alone. >> o'rourke is polling within four percentage points. he is running neck and neck with cruz in terms of campaign donations and a video of o'rourke defending nfl players to take a knee went viral on line being viewed over 50 million times. nbc went down to follow the o'rourke campaign and he joins me now. >> we wanted to give you a slice of this race and the place that it's taking place in of course. we have done so with conservative talk radio as both your guide and your sound track. >> he's hip, cool. ted cruz isn't tip and cool. his new trick is to go to those places, hold a rally, get people to show up and say the things that they like to hear. >> i am concerned about the polls. i don't necessarily know where they're polling people out. >> there are people

the bible says, it says rebellion.ity, against god, o against our parents. thehew, chapter 15:19, symptoms of heart disease are evil false, murder, adultery, false testimony, slander. sounds relevant today? onk chapter seven goes breed, wickedness, arrogance and foolishness. all these are symptoms of a bad heart. that describes our society today. problema huge spiritual but my friends, the good news is this there is a cure. we need a new heart. jesus talks about a man called nicodemus. what do i have to do to be saved? you have to be born again. i don't get it, how do i go into my mom's tummy and come out? no, you need to be born of the spirit. you need a new heart. a new heart. that is what changes. only god can change our heart. .e is our manufacturer he is the one that has to replace the heart. cannot do magic a, government, policies. they can only be solved by the divine creator. god can change your heart. the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control. .eace with god s

because at least are asking the largest kill legions want to go into the crypt the writers of the bible that created the story it's not god who created the story remember it was not god who came down and told us this is how i created you he did say that they created the bible and they gave us a serial creation now he's questioning the logic behind it because he says he'll make a perfect situation and you try to destroy it yourself it's not just the logic is it he's he said he doubled down a couple of days later he said i didn't say that my god is stupid i said your god is not my god because your god is stupid yes because you'll be ships reacted yes because i must because abusive they build and offensive because they didn't get exactly what he wanted to tell them if you are the christian groups or the catholic what should you be feel offended when your on here is being questioned you explain to the person questioning the russian of behind you don't be you don't feel church wasn't i as a catholic bishops conference of the philippines issued a sermon criticizing people in power who boast o

you look for a way for something to go bible. looking for something to go viral. the network is looking for something they can clip into a 39-second clip that will go viral. it's bad. it's good for business because you get a lot of ayes on it but it's bad for conveying information. >> watch this weekend on c-span2's booktv. >> "washington post" reporter rob woodward is our "washington journal" just monday at 7 a.m. eastern talking about his new book "fear: trump in the white house." >> about 9:30 a.m. eastern time fema administrative gave an update on preparations for hurricane florence. comparing it to hurricane hugo and floyd in the late 1990s. we also hear from officials with the epa, the army corps of engineers and the national oceanic and atmospheric administration. >> to make meaningful improvement to make sure we run programs and policies according to regulations and bottom line is we will continue to fully cooperate with any investigation that goes on and on