bill barr. before bill barr welcomes himself back into polite society, he needs to own what he did. he needs to be accountable for his actions, the same way i did, when i testified in front of the house overnight committee. >> i can understand why you have strong feelings about him. he said something else interesting to kaitlan collins tonight, about the amount of carnage, his word, that he thinks that donald trump leaves in his wake. let me play this for you. >> he belleaves in his wake, rud lives like this, the people that went up to capitol hill, many that served him in government that got sucked into things. and he leaves all of this carnage in his wake. >> you think he cares about that? >> no. he doesn't care about that. loyalty is a one-way street for him. >> i feel like you have something to say about that phenomenon. >> i agree with everything that he said. except for the fact that he was part of the group that was leaving the carnage in the street. he was part of the people who were weaponizing the department of justice. he is not an innocent baby in this case. he is, in fa

bill barr. again, before bill barr gets a chance to sit there, trying to welcome himself back to polite society, he needs to own what he did. he needs to be held accountable for his actions, the same way i did, for example, when i testified before the house oversight committee and the other six -- >> i could understand why have such strong feelings about him. he settling adjusting to kaitlan collins tonight, which is about the amount of carnage. that's his word. he thinks donald trump believes in his wake. let me play this for you. >> he leaves, and his way, ruined lives like this, the people who went up to capitol hill, these individuals, many of the people who served him and government that got sucked into those things, and he leaves all this carnage in his wake. >> do you think he cares about that? >> he doesn't care about that. loyalty is a one-way street for him. >> i feel you have something to say about that phenomenon. >> i agree with everything he said except for the fact that he was par

bill barr doesn't do things like that. he doesn't go out there.doesn't go out there publicly like that, unless there's a particular reason and he did it because he knew the former president would do that. if i were jack smith's investigators, that's a question i would've asked. >> and then he got out of the administration before things really got close -- >> before january six happened. but david urban, you also note the former attorney general, i mean, you know trump well to, he was blunt in his assessment of trump on the documents case, and the fact that his two new codefendants how, he kind of just described it as this path of carnage that has been left behind him. >> the superseding, so, that superseding indictment kind of got a little bit of press, but i got overwhelmed by this, right? i think that's much more damning, much more problems for republicans. the kind of support, right? when you have, like, the emoji in there is lots of, like, a lot of smoking guns in that case, the average people, if you're not really paying attention, you can ge

we'll be back in just a moment with trump's former attorney general bill barr.st interview since the former president was indicted a second time on federal charges and ahead of his arraignment here in washington tomorrow. we'll be right back. you're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so why d do we leave so much untapped potential on the table? this is a next level bed, for a next level you. my circadian rhythm is kicking your circadian rhythms butt! it's not a competition. i know, but i'm still winning! so, it is a competition. save up to $500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number®. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. is made for people like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! r more breakthroughs like that- i need breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back

, bill barr was a top cop. it makes sense that he would say that. that's the whole key. you know, if trump is really that dumb then he gets a chance to walk but if he's actually smart and he knew what he was doing, then, it's a very different story. what's going on now, you have these two narratives in the country that are basically the same narrative the democrats are saying the president misused his the power of his office to hold on to power. what the public is saying about the democrats the same thing, this president is misusing his office, the department of justice to knock out donald trump to stay in power. we're literally in mirror world, that both sides have the same accusation against each other. if you're a parent or a gr grandparent and you had a kid accused of cheating and the teacher said we have evidence that this kid was conspiring to cheat, johnny, what's the truth. the truth is the teacher hates me, the students are against me. the entire department of education is corrupt. who do you believe?

bill barr in just a moment. first right now, we want to go to washington and this drama that is building fast and furiously with all of these pending cases and moving cases of pushing things back. they also concern some separate issues on the hunter biden matter. all of it happening together. let's get the very latest from david. david? >> neil, you mentioned time. we're waiting for updates involving criminal cases with the names of a former president and the current president's son. think about when that has happened. well, it happened. we're in unchartered territory as we said all along. hunter's legal team is standing strong argue ago diversion agreement on a gun charge. they say the agreement was signed by both parties. david weiss' team says the agreement is null and void and starting from scratch. there's in deal. on the donald trump front, he and 18 others are expected to surrender in georgia. trump is not going tomorrow. this pushing things to next week, the same week as the presidential debate. on truth

bill barr said that yesterday that that's what he was told not only by bill barr, his attorney generalstice department, but he was told that by his white house counsel as well, pat cipollone. maybe he wouldn't be under indictment in four jurisdictions today, and he wouldn't be putting the country through this. he's not doing this for us. he is doing this because he can't help himself, and i think the first smart decision he's made in this regard in a long time was canceling that ridiculous press conference monday where he was going to unveil evidence to us he's apparently been hiding from the american people for nearly three years. i don't think so. i think it would have been another junior show of "the apprentice" we would have been watching on television. >> responding to the desantis campaign attack on you, auditioning as an msnbc show, there'sing there polling. quinnipiac says 32% of democrats have a favorable view of you versus 17% of republicans, and you're the most favored republican in another poll among democratic voters. that's great for general but is it out of step with whe

however, it's so significant that this is coming from bill barr. let's remember who bill barr is.l barr is the guy who campaigned for the job of attorney general basically by laying out a 17-page memo that he would serve as the president's personal defender, which he did. he lied to the american public about the results of the mueller report. he subverted the justice department in an effort to get the president's krcronies out o trouble. he dismissed the case against mike flynn, undermine d the sentencing for roger stone. this is a guy who during his term as attorney general was firm ly in line with everything the president wanted him to do. but in the aftermath of the election, even bill barr couldn't countenance the lie that the election had been stolen. it's an important voice. >> put in context, that's true. but is that context going to fall on deaf ears with the trump voters that you speak with out and about in the country? >> i think all this has to be digested. there is so many cases and so many jurisdictions that that's why this indictment, and they must be looked at indiv

i was curious what bill barr makes of that. ver looked into him in personal terms, and barr said there is no basis for that, that he thinks from what he has observed, jack smith is doing a fair job. he pushed back on people that say that the justice department is being weaponized against trump, saying this, you know, of trump's own making, and he said he had no doubt if trump is re-elected that he will try to use the justice department to go after his political opponents, something that trump has foreshadowed. it was a remarkably candid interview. you talked about how long it was. we were going to do two segments, get his take, but he was so candid and blunt. and he made clear that the reason he is speaking out is because he doesn't think trump belongs near the oval office again. and i know we live in this alternate reality where nothing seems normal, but to hear someone who is the attorney general for trump -- for the president of the united states coming out so harshly against his 2024 run is notable. but i will say, when i as

part of it, and the whole time you are thinking, this is bill barr, and you are talking about bill barr's evolution, and the new cnn poll here, and his evolution brings him to a place in the republican party that is the minority. >> substantially so. so we did a check-in on how people felt about the 2020 election, and overall, if you are looking at everyone overall, and you will see that 61% of the americans say yes, and joe biden legitimately won 2020, and 33% say no, and this is the mi authority position in the country, and among republicans, it is ticking back up in those believing that joe biden was not legitimately elected and now 69%, and 7 in 10 republican and republican leans in the poll say that joe biden was not legitimately elect and this is proof point that donald trump has successfully told this lie to tens of millions of republicans across this country. >> i, when you say that it is stacking up to ticking back up to earlier in the year, and even through late fall, that is one thing they want to know why is it is not ticking back up? >> the person with the biggest mega

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and bill barr was asked about that yesterday. let me play for you what he had to say about that line of defense. >> i don't think that there is against of advice of counsel will go toward because i think that the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to cross examination in order to raise that. and he'd also have to waive attorney/client privilege. >> and what would happen if he got on the stand? >> i think that it would not come out very well for him. >> do you think it would hurt him? >> oh, yes. >> and so there is really two questions there, but let's start with the first which is advice of counsel and where that lies in terms of strength of a defense. >> it is not a strong defense. i anticipate that he will raise it with his lawyers, that he essentially was just relying on these lawyers who told him that it was fine to go ahead and claim that there was election fraud, bring the baseless lawsuits, have the fake elector schemes. but ultimately what will do them in, you can't rely on legal advice if you ar

and bill barr made very clear that would not be a good idea. turkey, have donald trump take the stand? >> right. what we're seeing here is whether it's donald trump or his lawyers or republican elected officials, this is the political court. this is speaking to their base, to their supporters. this is not what's going to go on in the courtroom. >> but there is a reason for that, right? >> right. >> because donald trump's first primary and most important legal defense is to win the presidency in 2024. that's his hail mary pass for getting out from under both of these federal cases, because if he wins the presidency, he knows both cases go away overnight, if they haven't already concluded. >> important word, though, federal cases. because there are other cases and matters including manhattan. there is the decisions made by fani willis out of the fulton county d.a.'s office what they will do, and that would not essentially immunize him from that. but we're talking about political speech. as a talk point? this actually means something in the law. i

he's going after bill barr, who could be a potential witness.midate the people who are involved in the case, the special counsel, the judge and so on? >> i don't know. i'm not a lawyer. legally, jim, i don't know. all i know is this is manna for his base. this entire indictment has fueled his -- i think he's a lock for the nomination. but his base politically loves it when he does this. >> but why aren't more republicans speaking out? the rivals, they seem to be tiptoeing around going after trump. and you know this because you ran for congress. if you ran against somebody for your party's nomination and that person was indicted you would pounce. and it just isn't happening. >> well, you asked asa hutchinson that question and he didn't answer you. the truth is because if you go after trump you can't win. asa hutchinson's a good man. will hurd's a good man. chris christie. those three who are attacking trump have zero shot at the nomination. the only lane in this party is to try to hug trump and hope that he can't run. >> and paul, trump also has

what was interesting when i was listening to the interview with former attorney general bill barr. it was all interesting to some degree. he was talking about the idea of evidence of fraud and there have had been 2 1/2 years no evidence of fraud. pretty much no way the president couldn't know based on everything laid out in the indictment. take a listen >> here we are 2 1/2 years and still they haven't come forward with any evidence. as the indictment comes forward you have giuliani saying we have a loft theories but not evidence. no evidence. they wanted to overturn the election and they had no evidence of outcome determ native fraud. >> what's striking so much of what we heard from his legal defense team is state of mind, what he actually believed and what the prosecutors look at what he's been told over and over and there has been no evidence still to this moment. >> it goes to the question about competency. the track of i knew it was a lie but i said it anyway. or he's going to say i truly believe it or all the evidence is the contrary. at the core of this donald trump decided

here is what trump's then attorney general bill barr not on jenner six but the days and weeks leading up to january six told kaitlan collins last night when asked about this first amendment defense. >> as the indictment says, they are not attacking his first amendment right. he can say whatever he wants. he can't even lie and tell people that the election was stolen, when he knew better. but that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. all conspiracies involve speech, and all fraud involve speech. free speech is not give you the right to engage in fraudulent conspiracy. >> there goes that theory. >> he ripped that apart. >> he said donald trump can lie. we know donald trump lies. they can my aunt they want, try to depress, lied to his friends, lie to people who work for him, but he said that is kind of besides the point. that is almost irrelevant. this was, according to the former attorney general, and he seemed to believe that it was laid out clearly a conspiracy. if you want to have a conspiracy, who had to conspire with other people. and we all know from looking at th

. >> and this is what he calls nauseating and despicable behavior and what bill barr had to say in the first reaction to trump's indictment, and what it is revealing about at the then president. and plus, is this indictment the most important case in the nation's history, and one expert says yes, it is, and what he says is at stake beyond donald trump's future. that is next. with chase freedom unlimited, yocan cashback 3% on dining including take-out. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or the tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. well, good luck with that. earn big with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? - [mo] if you're thinking about going back to school, this is for you. ♪ - i ended up spending less money my entire time at snhu than i did in just one year at my other university. - [juan] my time at snhu has given me more confidence. now i can go for that promotion. - if you're ready to go back to school... you can do it. southern new hampshire university has changed my life. and it can change yours too. ♪ - [announcer] visit snhu.edu

we've all been leaning in to say what bill barr had to say. a lot of wanting to see what he had to say. thank you for joining us here in washington, d.c. it's a capitol on high alert tonight? why? because the nation is bracing for the arrest and arraignment of a former president. should i say again the third time in three months. he will appear in court tomorrow as expected, and now his third indictment on charges of trying to overturn an election. and we learned on cnn the secret service has already done a walk through of the courthouse and law enforcement is even monitoring any potential threats. meantime, everyone, we're getting an early look at what his potential defense strategy might be including what's called -- this is not my term -- but the dilution defense, that he actually believed his own lies. plus the suggestion he's about to throw his legal advisers under the bus. i can't imagine that happening. and just moments ago trump's former attorney general bill barr spoke to cnn with his very first reaction to this new indictment. >> at

the fact of the matter is -- oh, you know, one of the other things they said well bill barr said there wasn't any evidence of fraud. well, i had lots of evidence of fraud. >> laura: i haven't seen that evidence and i'm always wanting to see everything. i haven't seen that evidence. and i would love to see that

so bill barr could give potentially more insight into that aspect. remember, he did resign so was not there toward the very end of the trump term, but he had unique access to the man, had unique access to his thought processes, to his thinking and to the team of attorneys, now the six unindicted co-conspirators who had donald trump's here at the time. the attorney general would not engage in the question as to whether or not he had already spoken to the special counsel team, but he did say that if he was called as a witness, that he would be more than happy to testify. >> garrett, real quick here, you and i are on this train we didn't know was going to exist, which is the indictment train. three, possibly four coming in the next couple weeks. couple that with the train you are on, which is the trump campaign trail, right, how are they planning are managing the intersection of these trials that are coming up along with the campaign trail, the primaries and are they seeing these trials as a way to campaign, if in fact he won't be able to be out there?

i would even point out that bill barr was saying what a serious case this is and what a problem it isnominee again. so i certainly hope he'll have more outspoken v.o.i.c.e. voices. i this it's notable that people like bill barr and most of the people who served in trump's administration have not endorsed him. and in fact, in his trials, you'll have all these republicans who -- from vice president pence who down, white house staff, white house counsel, who will be testifying about his illegal activity. >> juju: heidi, you talked about the fact that these prosecutions of the january 6th insurrectionists and his indictment has had a certain effect on protests and the mood of people. but what do you think its impact is on voters as well? >> i think donald trump has this idea that there are thousands of people out there who will walk over cut glass, but yet we have seen three arraignments with very little activity on the part of maga to defend him in the streets. i think that's a good indicator that maybe there is something turning for the former president. >> juju: as we know, the polls t

bill barr disagreed with that.rs in a run up to an election saying aim candidate. these are investigations going on for a while. everybody knew about them etch before he announced his candidacy. so if there's a chance to get it resolved before the election, it should be. the american people should no. they're potential crimes that involve moral turpitude. >> bill barr was mentioning the possibility that one orb two trials could set off before the campaign and before election day no matter what the president's lawyers want to do. bob barr is with us, the liberty guard chairman. he knows about how this wiggles along. bob, very good to have you back. >> thank you. great to be with you. always good to hear my name sake bill barr there. >> so what he was getting at on the legal basis of it all is that, you know, you might be able to push off but you can't push that far off. he mentioned jack smith's case, which is doable before the election. do you think that that is true? >> not only is it true, but it reflects the pol

paula, look, bill barr said up today's development. so, i want to know, what we now know tonight about what the plan is for trump to build a defense? >> we are starting to see the broad contours of a legal defense here and they are really trying to hit on this idea of infringing on his freedom of speech, and saying that, here the, government has allegedly criminalize political speech. what that fails to take into consideration is the fact that the indictment outlines exactly how this went so much further than just words and laying out the specific series of alleged actions that the former president took. now, in the alternative, they're also arguing this good, faithfully by the former president really believed that the election had been stolen. but prosecutors were one step ahead of him, laying out, in the indictment, multiple instances where he either admitted that he did lose or that he had officials telling him that, in fact, there was no basis for these claims. >> paula, stick around. we need your insight tonight and right now, als

let's start with that opinion from bill barr. he weighed in on the charges. if this case does indeed go to trial we think some time next year, what are the chances we see someone like bill barr and other trump appointed former officials, could be former cabinet members sitting across the courtroom from their former boss testifying against him? >> good morning, jonathan. i think it's very likely the way to show trump's corrupt attempt is either through trump's own words or what he was told. there's not a lot in the indictment of trump's own words but there is a lot of what he was told. told by top officials, even republicans. john eastman said it's okay and sydney powell said it's okay and rudy giuliani said it's okay. well, two of those are considered part of team crazy and eastman even admitted in private meetings his theories were at best untested and at worst totally unconstitutional. he doesn't have as many great defenses. as bill barr said if trump want to go down that road and say it's a counsel defense or i have first amendment protection, he's got to

geoff: bill barr, thanks for coming in. bill: two i. good to see you. -- thank you. you. yep. ♪ geoff: four years ago today gunman entered a walmart in el , a paso, texas, fatally shooting 23 people and wounding 22 others. the shooter targeted hispanic shoppers in one of the deadliest such attacks in u.s. history. last month, he was sentenced in federal court to 90 consecutive life sentences, as grief-stricken family members read emotional statements in court. we hear reflections now from two people intimately connected to the tragedy of that day. >> my name is adria gonzalez, and i live right now in georgia, and i am a walmart shooting survivor. >> my name is gilberto luis anchondo. everybody calls me tito. and i lost my brother, andre anchondo and his wife, jordan anchondo in the el paso walmart shooting. >> once we heard the gunshots going on, the first thing that happened to me was, how many were there this summer how many shooters or what was really going on? so i left my mother in the meat section, and i went to the front and that's when i saw everything. a bod

if there are other options -- >> is it conceivable bill barr could vote for donald trump?rr will vote for but i'm more interested in what you think as you apply that to the rest of republicans in america. >> what you're saying is a slow realization, a gradual realization republicans maybe about six months ago thought they had exorcised donald trump from the party. you had mitch mcconnell shortly after the disappointing 2022 midterms saying trump had been -- his political capital had been diminished. these cases we spoke about essentially supercharged trump 's political capital, rallied the party around him, and now people like bill barr, like mitch mcconnell start to hedge more because essentially the base, that 30% trump has this iron tight grip on in these legal challenges and they're going where the winds are. >> rebecca, michael, appreciate it. we'll speak with candidate chris christie ahead of the first republican primary debate. you won't want to miss that. >>> mortgage rates are very expensive if you've tried to get one recently. the highest in 21 years. what this m

look, the fact is -- and i thought one of the more interesting things bill barr did say last night intold, he meaning donald trump was being told by barr, other members of the justice department, and by white house counsel pat cipollone that if he continued to do these things in the post-election period regarding interfering with the election results, that he was going to be involved with the criminal justice system for the rest of his life. now, that's a problem for donald trump in another way. he can't claim ignorance here. he can't claim he didn't know that he was treading on or over the line because his own lawyers in his own justice department and his own white house counsel were telling him you need to stop this, sir. because what's going to happen here is you're going to wind up in criminal are problems. he should have listened to his lawyers back then. and now what he should be doing is trying to cut the best plea deal that he can or otherwise he's going to be exposed to real criminal consequences over the course of the next year to two. >> final question, governor, why do you

forced out attorney general sessions, and then bill barr was the attorney general, bill barr told him there is no basis for this. barr resigned, and then he put in acting attorney general, that person told him that the justice department has no role here. you have to have a legal challenge to it, the legal challenge failed because there was no basis for it, and then trump just ignored the legal advice he was getting from his normal legal advisers. the white house counsel, the councils were excluded from meetings. they brought in these people that were part of his conspiracy to try to overturn the results of the election. and that's what went on the white house. there's nothing like this that had been seen before. >> the other thing that struck me, and what we certainly don't know, we weren't in there, although we were on the transition. but president pence claimed he didn't know about the electors plot. he was the chief of staff to vice president and president, i don't buy that. but i'm interested in what your gut instinct was that. >> it's hard to know what they did or didn't tell mi

the way that bill barr answered that, he said at first i wasn't sure. for a jury that could be a doubt and/or reasonable doubt, yes? >> this is the kind of thing that's going to play out in this trial. this is the most important criminal trial in many ways in american history. and the issues are not just everyday law. but really grand and vital issues of our democracy and was our constitution attempted to be overthrown. a lot of it will turn on the legal specifications. but a lot of it will turn on something we saw as citizens at the time. >> on the most basic level why is he -- the fact -- whether or not donald trump acknowledged he lost the election, why is it so key? in. >>ing because you have to prove intent, right, for virtually any criminal charge we have in our system you have to prove intent. if he really was pursuing what he believed to be true with all of these efforts, he's the rightful president, believes it and is pursuing ways to stay in office, you wouldn't have the criminal intent. >> how hard do you think this is in terms of the bar the

remember that bill barr announced his resignation as attorney general the day the trump fake electors met all over the country, december 14, 2020. trump had asked barr to use the department of justice for things like name a special counsel to investigate voter fraud and to use the department of justice to seize voting machines. so barr is a potentially key witness here. and barr had said as recently as this month that he will appear as a witness if called to do so. and so in the hours before trump's and barr's dueling interviews, trump posted this online. why does fox news constantly put on slow thinking and lethargic bill barr who didn't have the courage to fight election fraud? then after the interview trump reposted marjorie taylor greene's case that bill barr is a traitor. and he's postally similarly arguably threatening things about former vice president mike pence as well as georgia's governor, its lieutenant governor and its secretary of state. and also today again he posted a bunch of videos like this. >> how dare lowlife prosecutor deranged jack smith -- that's right, he's de

. >> griff: looking ahead to this trial, trump's former are attorney general bill barr says trump has high bar to meet but agrees it has meeting merit. >> it's legitimate case, unlike the document case, it's going to have issues of proof. it's a more complicated case they are not attacking his family right. he can say whatever he wants. but that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. all conspiracies involve speech. and all fraud involves speech. >> griff: meanwhile, as hunter biden's legal woes worsen with the plea deal he was paid just under a million by communist china. "the washington post" is givings president joe biden four pinocchios for claiming his son never received money from china writing quote nearly three years later biden's assertions have been directed by hunter himself in court testimony last week the younger biden admitted he in fact had been paid substantial sums in china. this as "the washington post" also revealing, guys, that former president obama is privately warning biden that trump is a more formidable candidate than democrats realize another h

this is from bill barr earlier in the week. comment on that. >> i don't regret an opportunity to serve the country and work with a lot of the great people that were in the trump administration. i don't regret it. i do think that he booted it. a lot of people worked very hard to give him the opportunity for a second term and it was easily within his grasp in my opinion and because he's so self-centered and lacks any kind of control, self-control or discipline, he booted it. neil: if he were he were elected president again, do you think he could get good people around him? or once burned twice shy. >> i think to be hard to attract people other than people who are subserviant to him and are yes people. neil: secretary, what did you think of that? >> well, i too was very honored to serve the person people and particularly kids and their families as secretary of education, and i believe that we have got to stay focused on ensuring that joe biden does not get a second term as president because where he's taking this country is simply

it's not remarkable coming from bill barr or anyone else. people are entitled to justice. americans are as entitled to a speedy trial as the defendant is. whether or not that's something that can be achieved in any of the four pending prosecutions remains to be seen. as a principle, though, it seems very unremarkable and something that we should all believe is something the criminal justice system should aspire to do. >> i want to add also, and i'm glad you made this point, i don't care if it's william barr, i don't care if it's chris christie, i don't care if it's rudy giuliani. any of these people who are involved in this administration cannot turn around today and say the most minimal of things and then expect us to believe that they're on the right side of history or that they're decent people. they are part of why we're in this situation to begin with. so no whitewashing here, we don't do that. i also want to take this to you, david. so we have a full screen here from june of 2022 from "the new york times." chesebro cited fears over january 6th as a way to instigate t

bill barr said, he has come around to believing trump actually knew he lost. put that in the context of this case. >> right. i think one of the important elements in this indictment is that they say right on page 1, the defendant knew these things were lies. trump knew that he was lying. i think one of the interesting dynamics that creates for the future trial is that you are probably going to have some witnesses who say they believe he knew. i also suspect, based on our reporting, you will have a number of witnesses who say he believed that there was this fraud, this mass voter fraud, that we know did not happen. i just think one of the really interesting issues here that a jury will ultimately have to wrestle with is, what is in trump's mind? what's his intent as he sets out to do these things? >> can they get to that without putting him on the stand? >> sure. there's a million ways to get to intent, through witnesses who say what someone means, including through other actions. there are moments in the indictment that describe trump saying things that are fl

both of them were happening at four pm remember, bill barr announced his resignation as attorney generale day that the trumps fake electors met all over the country, december 14th 2020. trump had asked barr to use the department to name special counsel to investigate voter fraud, and a huge department of justice to seize voting machines. so, barr is a potentially key witness here. and barr has said, -- he will appear as a witness if called to do so. so, in the hours before trump and barr's dueling interviews, trump posted this online. why does fox news constantly put on slow thinking and lethargic bill barr, who didn't have the courage or stamina to fight election fraud! after the interview trump reposted marjorie taylor greene's remarks that bill barr is a traitor. also today, trump has retreated or posted arguably ambiguous potential threatening things about -- including mike pence, as well as georgia's governor, its former lieutenant governor, and its secretary of state. also today, again, he posted a bunch of videos like this. >> how dare lowlife prosecutor, deranged jack smith, that

saw the bill barr interviewer, how damning or not or does it matter that former attorney general saying, oh, yeah, he knew. >> he well knew that he had lost the election bill behind since bits and drabs since he left. >> quietly sort putting the hammer on his former boss. and this is another example where i think really enjoyed going on tv and saying, yeah, you know, maybe i thought in the beginning that he was kind of delusional. but in the end, there's no way he could have been end. and what's interesting about the dilution defense, it really puts in part to your make that defense successfully. you have to put into question the state of mind and the cognitive ability of that person. you know, can you? successfully make argument someone can reasonably say make it a can or can make an assumption that despite the fact that you have 900 people saying. the sky is blue and one person saying the sky is actually a bright shade of orange. to really to say that you believe the person believe that sky was orange requires. that's the mission essentially. and contesting of your mental state. i can

it's called comfort what bill barr is saying, by the way.e also will tell you, if you ask him, if donald trump is the nominee, that he doesn't know who he would vote for. to me it seems pretty clear, if you think the guys that weaponized government, you should be able to say i'm not going to vote for that guy. my republican colleagues can also do more to not by donald trump's law firm, but to unite with democrats, make unity the antidote toward these des destructive attacks. >> congressman swalwell, thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. >>> a sobering moment today in our nation's history, the third indictment of a former president. right now donald trump is on his way here to washington to be arraigned on federal charges. just ahead, we'll talk about this moment, what it means for trump and what it means for our country. cnn's special live coverage of the indictment of the former president continues right after a quick break. got my fico® score, raised it instantly, i even found new ways to save. all right here. free. and fast. see all y

and then bill barr was the attorney general. bill bowler told him there is no basis, had a giant falling, out barr resigned. and then he put acting attorney general, that person told him, basically, the justice department has no rule here. you have to have a legal challenge to it. legal challenge field cause there's no basis for. and then trump ignored the legal advice who's getting from his normal legal advisers. the white house counsel excluded from meetings, trump brought in these people who are part of his conspiracy to try and overturn the results of the election. there is nothing like this that's ever been seen before. >> the other thing that struck. we certainly weren't and, there although we were on the transition. the vice president claimed he didn't know about the electors plot. you've been the chief of staff to a vice president and president. i don't buy that. i mean, i'm interested in white your gut instinct was to that? >> hard to know what they did or didn't tell mike pence. they were clearly trying to pressure mik

. >> we saw the former attorney general in the trump administration bill barr speaking to cnn.said this indictment is just the tip of the iceberg. what do you think of that? you think jack smith has more evidence not included we are going to see if this goes to trial? >> i'm sorry. >> just bringing sarah on that question. >> the one thing about this case is a little bit different from the standard case is we are seeing these expensive indictments. speaking indictments which happen but we are seeing the government's case set out in real detail in these indictments. that is -- we have this picture, this window into the government's case. there is certainly more to come. they have recounted in this indictment much of the western we have gleaned -- much of the evidence they have gleaned from the witnesses. i am sure what is set forth in the indictment is a small portion of what they would expect to present at any trial in this matter. >> i want to get your thoughts on that. we just cut you off. >> i was just going to say it is jampacked with a lot of information. we never put every

former attorney general bill barr last night released affected the argument made by trump's lawyer , insists that trump's false claims about election fraud amount to free speech. >> he can say whatever he wants . he can even lie. he can even tell people that that that the election was was stolen when he when he knew better. but but that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. all conspiracies involve speech and all fraud involves speech and former vice president mike pence yesterday dismissed the notion that he could have paused the election certification on january sixth. >> pence's remarks coming after trump's attorney said this on tuesday night and the final ask that mr. trump made to vice president pence was simply pause. >> the voting. there's nothing inherently unconstitutional or illegal about that. but let's let's be clear on this point. it wasn't just that they asked for a pause. the president aren't specifically asked me and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes to which would have resulted in in in the issue being turned over to th

attorney general bill barr and the head of the cyber security and infrastructure security agency now cbs news expert and analyst, chris krebs. trump attorney john lauro will also be with us. what do americans think? >> every time they file an indictment we go way up in the polls. we need one more indictment to close out this election. >> will trump's theory hold? former congressman and gop hopeful will hurd will join us. >>> minnesota democrat dean phillips says his party should look for an alternative to president biden. we'll talk to him about that. it's all just ahead on "face the nation." >>> good morning. welcome to "face the nation." margaret is off today. as we come on the air this morning, disappointing news from australia as the u.s. women's soccer team has lost its knockout round match to sweden and has thereof been eliminated in the world cup. in the u.s. the impact of former president trump's third indictment has not only underscored divisions in our country between the parties but appears republicans are divided as well, with some trump supporters believing he did not wr

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yet the president, despite that loyalty from bill barr, from rich donoghue, continues to go down thepublicans. that is to whom he steps in this misguided attempt to find someone who's going to take unlawful action. and thankfully, there were enough people in the department of justice -- and look, i'm biased. i grew up as a lawyer in the department of justice. i have immense respect for the men and women who work there, regardless of administration, republican or democrat. they're people generally of integrity. and they said no, thankfully. and brad raffensperger said no. pence said no. so there are a lot of people that said no. but to be clear, they were all conservative republicans who supported the president on everything else on matters of policy. >> and john heilemann, it's just important as we get to the criminal prosecution piece to understand that all these cases have been assembled using testimony not just from registered republicans, not from people who used to work for the old normal republicans, but from trump republicans. that is who has told the story of trump's attempt

you know, it's so fascinating, he said bill barr was a coward. no, bill barr did everything he could do to defend donald trump, until donald trump told him a couple weeks before the election, "i need you to arrest my opponent and his family and throw them in jail so i can win the presidential election." i mean, it's straight out of a fascist dictatorship, and so bill barr, after, i've got to say, humiliating himself for several years, bill barr decides, this is where i get off. this is enough. >> this is my line. >> i believe in an imperial presidency, but i don't believe in a fascist presidency. that's what donald trump was asking him to do. asking him to steal an election. asking him to arrest his political opponents. asking him to do the sort of things, again, that fascist dictators do. he wouldn't do it. now, trump has turned on him. as far as fani willis goes and jack smith and everything else, again, we can point you back to it and play it for you again, what we were saying in 2019. if donald trump lost in 2020, he would run again, and he'd

just to be clear had a role in that, because bill barr wanted to also sort of essentially get rid of the sentence recommendation there and help donald trump's friends, of which this was one. what did roger stone do? according to what you just played, is while you're out on bail, awaiting sentencing, you're engaging in a coup. so you can understand why the department of justice would feel like he has not been sufficiently held to account, because essentially donald trump erased his last finding of criminality. so i think he's one of the people who i think we're going to see charges. i think that's true of cheese bro, going to be true at the federal level for a whole variety of people. i would be very surprised if we didn't see charges against ches bro, rudy giuliani, a number of people. i think the federal government probably wants to wait and see what the trial date is with respect to donald trump, keeping their eye on the prize, so to speak, where their main focus is and should be, but these other players, they like georgia are going to hold them to account. >> i want to talk abo

bill barr was on fox news saying he would vote for trump even though he continues to say what trump did was illegal. you do see this conversion behind trump. i don't think is necessarily driven ideologically. as for the plea deal, i think that is exceedingly unlikely. then again with trump, his overarching philosophy, if that's the right word, is going to be to stay out of jail. you talk a lot to trump advisors and the one thing he doesn't want to do is be inside a jail. maybe at the 11th hour, he tries to strike a deal but this is the calculus in prosecution as well. the longer you wait to strike a deal, the less good it is for the government and the less sling and see you get. host: steve on the republican line from santa fe -- san jose, california. caller: good morning. this is a two-part question. the first part is, in light of the failed hunter biden plea deal which was outrageous and the failure, the reluctance to prosecute hillary clinton, how can you not say that there is a two tiered justice system? that's the first part of the question. the second part is what do you know inso

you know, mike pence, and we know, is just falling in the line of -- and jeff sessions, and bill barr, and all of these folks who are the best people ever when he hired them. as soon as a -- >> extraordinary loyal, to, to him. -- >> yes, anderson is a disagree, they become the worst people on earth. the things he wrote about mike pence. i'm running against mike, i want to assure about him -- but he doesn't deserve the, and he doesn't deserve those comments. the former president's lawyer, a new lawyer, john lauro is defending the presidents action. he says, technical violation to the constitution is not a violation of criminal law. does that make sense to you? >> you know, no. he admits that the president violated his oath. think about that. the president of the united states promises to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the united states. his own lawyer has admitted that he violated the constitution. >> i want to play something he told laura on fox last week. >> what president trump said is, let's go adoption the, let's just halt, let's just pause the voting and allow