it starts with the blowingosphere, the rise of that -- blogosphere, the rise of that movement. what they have in their quiver is that at the same time blogging rose, you had a huge problem with the establishment press on things like the iraq war and -- so "the new york times," the washington post -- they were seen as lapcogs do -- lapdogs to the establishment. that became a proof point. chris: helene, with the "new york times" with "the washington post" and "the wall street journal," it's been the place a candidate had to go to make it, to get an interview, to say this person has something to say that's serious. how do you avoid them, say we're not going to go to those gatekeepers any more, we're just going to sell it on television. >> i think a lot of candidates will absolutely avoid the mainstream media. durability last election john mccain didn't talk to the "new york times" at all. chris: he had reason though, didn't he? [laughter] >> at the same time, the mainstream media will still be doing the stories that drive the agenda. >> look, we're all being tested now. the surviv