with more on the expects of the keystone xl decision, i'm thrilled to be joined by bob cavnar, ceo ofgy" production company luca technologies, and a 30-year oil industry veteran. and bill mckibben. great to have you both. should we be surprised when we hear about these spills like the one in arkansas, or is this the price of having these pipelines crisscrossing our country. >> we should be shocked. the first keystone pipeline they built spilled 12 times in 12 months. the thing we didn't know about pegasus that spilled in arkansas, it's one-tenth the size of the keystone xl. if it was keystone xl it would not an river of oil running down the street but a niagara of oil spilling down the street. this is a folly to put a huge pop line over the aquifer. we're just asking for trouble. >> john: why are we having more of these pipeline spills than ever. this is the third in the past two years. >> there are a couple of things going on here. obviously we pay a lot more attention now to these kinds of things. at least people outside of the industry do since the blow out of the bp well, and the