>> i think for a long time, red auerbach, bob cousy -- he took the top lawyer from holy cross among the celtics. it was an all-white team. nba in thehe 1950's and 60's -- the nba is very much a local league. it is not on national tv. there is no idea about who is good in california, if you're in boston. but because of the media, you can now watch lew alcindor, kareem abdul-jabbar. that is the guy we want. basketball is all local. in the 50's and 60's, it becomes national. >> the guy that recruited, two from new york? matthew: we talk about the reasons why frank maguire is able to bring them to new york. other questions, other thoughts? no one wants to argue back and say larry bird was way better than magic? >> i'm not going to argue either way. matthew: it doesn't matter. >> one of the things i remember reading in the press, they always talked about how hard of a worker larry bird was. >> yes, a lunch player gouy. >> i do not remember reading that as much about magic. matthew: i think this plays into our ideas about race. bird's success is due to work ethic. hisc's success is due to nat