i appreciate your good insight here, and i'm going to go to bob mcintyre here. should we scrap the entire damn tax system? is the system itself a crisis? do we have a friend that we should work in and we cannot work in? >> well, we have to have a tax system. >> i think so. i do not know if ron paul is in agreement. >> he has not only repudiated the 20th-century, he has done so for the 18th century. we put people on mount rushmore because they were taxed heroes. george washington for putting together the constitutional convention that gave us the power to tax. abraham lincoln, who instituted the first income-tax. teddy roosevelt, because in a petulant moment, he ran for president as a third-party candidate, split the republican vote, and got the 16th amendment adopted. it out liar was jefferson, who was a bit of a coupon taxes, but he did get louisiana. there are a lot of people that would like to go back to the 19th century and all of our taxes be sales taxes. that is the scientology movement tax program. oddly enough, called the fair tax. it must be an acronym

>> bob mcintyre will remember that fred harris ran for president in 1976 on the slogan take the rich off welfare. it is a good call to outrage to stoke up the crowd here. let's first get a round of applause to the panel. it has been an amazing time. [applause] >> then what i would like to do is have questions from the audience. if you were watching this at home and it is not some other day than today you can't meet in questions to this address at a adafund and i will be the medium for those questions but if you are here physically just raise your hand. john will call on you and don will bring you a mike and i have been waiting all day to say this. wait for the mike because we are on c-span. >> very good. we have a gentleman right here. you want to give him the mike? we have about a half hour left so we will ask folks to -- along and extensive tax policy. you might submit that for the record and goes straight to the questions. >> i am norman kurland, decenter of economic justice. the philosophy goes through a man named louis kelso who developed a concept -- a theory of economics. a pl

bob mcintyre, with the heck are you doing on this channel?[inaudible] >> well, i have a microphone. this is so cool. i wanted to talk into a microphone. it's one of my favorite game. i know is that these things. i've been doing this since 1975 and you could argue it should blame for everything that's wrong in the world today, at least when it comes to taxes. i take no credit for religious strife. and just to say that people think man, this is always going one way and it's always begins test. that's not true. we've had over the years amazing victories and some staggering losses. are we better off than they were then? hard to say, but we certainly have done good news as well as bad and i am looking forward to this year to pushing that rock up much closer to the top of the hill before it falls back down on me again. >> you do as director for citizens for tax justice. >> that's my title. >> you're supposed to throw that in there. >> doesn't everyone know that? be met with combat to thicken and ask you why you haven't had more success over those 4

bob mcintyre. >> they dodged taxes by reporting less income than they make to the interest -- internal revenue service. they do that in a variety of ways. sometimes they move their profits to a tax haven in a warm, caribbean place. sometimes congress passes a law that they can report less than they make. by taking write-offs for expenses they do not have. sometimes it gives them a credit against their taxes for research they do not do. that is how they pay less. the reason, in this report we put out a while ago, that some pay more and some others nothing, there are more loophole that they can use. some of them have not paid taxes for 10 years even though they reported tens of billions in profits. >> do we need more auditors? >> we need fewer loopholes, which meet -- means we need a better congress. >> then you have campaign finance reform -- >> no, we just need a better congress. >> one thing that has become increasingly important. private equity, when something is taken over by private equity, they tend to borrow large amounts of money against the company. then they pay interest payme

bob mcintyre, what the heck are you doing on this panel?have a microphone. >> are making progress. >> i wanted to talk into a microphone, one of my favorite things. i am always at these things. i've been doing this since 1975 and you could argue i'm to blame for everything that is wrong in the world today at least when it comes to taxes. and just to say that you know people think oh, and this is always going one way and it's always against us. it's not sure. we have had over the years some very amazing victories and we have had some staggering losses. are we better off than we were then? i would say but we certainly have done some good things as well as bad, and i'm looking forward to this year to pushing that rock up closer to the top of the hill before it falls back down on me again. >> and you do this as director of citizens for tax director. >> that is my title. >> you're supposed to throw that in there. you have been banging away at it and we will come back to you in the second and ask you why you haven't had more successes over those

as you went through that history, i noticed bob mcintyre rolling his eyes and nodding. i told staff not to do that. -- taft not to do that. [laughter] you have been at this since ford was president. you have seen victories. tax fairness can win. you have also seen some frustrating battles. give us a sense of where we are at now as regards a tax fairness fight and also, why is it hard to bring these issues to the forefront and to get a real debate on tax fairness? >> there is any change in the republican party since the liberal years of ronald reagan. that is been a big difference. reagan, you know, put through what could possibly be the worst tax bill in the history of the u.s. in 1981. he was advised by people like newt gingrich and he was told that if he cut taxes on rich people and corporations, it would increase revenues and he could pay for his defense. he believes that because he was a believing kind of man. when that did not work out, not one year later when he was told there was a budget hole, and reagan looked at him and said, you mean tip o'neill was right? [l

as you went through that history, i noticed bob mcintyre rolling his eyes and nodding. i told staff not to do that. -- taft not to do that. [laughter] you have been at this since ford was president. you have seen victories. tax fairness can win. you have also seen some frustrating battles. give us a sense of where we are at now as regards a tax fairness fight and also, why is it hard to bring these issues to the forefront and to get a real debate on tax fairness? >> there is any change in the republican party since the liberal years of ronald reagan. that is been a big difference. reagan, you know, put through what could possibly be the worst tax bill in the history of the u.s. in 1981. he was advised by people like newt gingrich and he was told that if he cut taxes on rich people and corporations, it would increase revenues and he could pay for his defense. he believes that because he was a believing kind of man. when that did not work out, not one year later when he was told there was a budget hole, and reagan looked at him and said, you mean tip o'neill was right? [l