>> look, i know bob reich, you accuse me of being a supply cider. i plead guilty. >> you should wear that proudly pop i'm guilty, too. >> if you tax -- listen, let me just read this. you're taxing health test scans, x-rays, you're taxing doctors, you're taxing health insurance, medical device makers. you tax something like this, you're going to get less of it. yords, steve moore, my argument is all these health care taxes will generateless health care, fewer health care services, fewer health care products. and that is an unintended consequence. >> there's one good example of this. one of the major rays to pay for this is to tax health insurance companies. how do you think, bob, that they're going to pass the tax obs to the policyholders who make premiums more expensive. >> right now, health insurance companies are making out like been a git dits. why not dax them? somebody's got to pay obviously for this. >> but if you tax them, somebody is going to pay for that. >> i've got tot go. cut and run. not sure we settled that but we'll try again another

bob reich, it sounded like you were going to make the case that president obama will return us to the economic boom time era of small government in the '80s and '90s, or did i misunderstand? >> well, i can't tell you that, larry, but so far what obama has done so far, t.a.r.p., a stimulus package and health care are all responses of a failure that occurred over the previous eight years where we had spending on anything. we had a run-up in the deficit such as we have not had in this country and also a failure in regulation where the treasury, bush's treasury and also sec, securities and exchange commission basically turned a blind eye to what was going on in wall street. leading us ultimately to a huge housing bubble explosion. and that's what we need right now to clean up. that's what obama is trying to clean up. health care has to be done. in 1980, we had a tiny little health care percentages a a percentage of gdp and now it's exploded. >> wartime tends to create bigger and bigger government. i will support george bush's war against terror, but my question to you, steve, has it perma

bob reich, democrats pounced on this. >> i think the baucus bill, as a professor grading papers, i would grade somewhere between a d and an f. it's the beginning point. this is the dance of legislation. over the next month and a half, we're going to see the democrats come out with a different bill. we'll see something go to the senate as a whole. we'll see a lot of negotiating in the senate finance committee itself. is this a good place to begin? i would say it's not ideal. but it's at least a place to begin. the momentum for health care,s that we're going to get a bill of health care on the president's desk that he'll be comfortable signing this fall. >> i'm sure you're right. we have seen 500-something amendments filed in the senate finance committee. the beauty of it, it covers almost everybody, 94%. >> and it keeps the insurers and the drug companies, all of the opponents inside the box. >> doesn't increase the deficit. george will, if you start to address these concerns over affordability and costs, will the president's overall red line it's not increase the deficit will it be meant

. >> yeah, larry, first of all, i don't share your honor and respect for bob reich. just kidding, bob. >> you're the one that was late. >> one of the things that happened today, larry, also was that they froze the premium -- the medicare part b premiums and that means the system is now going to go even further into deficit. this is the whole problem, bob, i have with the takeover of the health care system with government spending. because they can not contain the costs. and we've already got a system that some $10 trillion to $20 trillion in deficit. congress is saying we're going to give seniors a break on the premium. >> this is apples and oranges. the health care system is already run on a fee-for-service basis with huge insurance fees that are going up. co-payments, deductibles, premiums. every american family knows it. it was 8% of the entire national economy in 1980. it's now 16%. we've got to control costs. the only way to control cost is to make sure everybody gets preventive care, everybody is under the same umbrella. we spread the risks to everybody in this

. >> bob reich, i want to ask you straight up, would a government insurance option lower cost or increase> if you have a public plan option and if private plans have got to compete i think that's going to lower cost. why shouldn't people have the freedom to choose a public insurance plan if they want to? freedom of choice, i like that phrase. >> well, i certainly like your rhetoric and use of that phrase. lord knows, mike tanner, last one. this system seems rigged to me. government runs the system. big business is the supplier. insurance runs the system. and big insurance runs the system. i don't see what the role of the consumer and the individual and the patient is. >> oh, come on. >> mike tanner, sometimes these big government solution just tilt the playing field. >> sure. if all we want is more competition, why don't we let people buy insurance across state lines. we don't need a new giant government insurance program. we just need to give consumers choice. that's out there. >> listen, let me respond to that. i think it's a pretty good idea. the problem is that insurance is now regula

bob reich proposed in the past, i don't know if he's still for it. some versions of competitive bidding where everybody in medicare would get the same voucher and they would pick where they would go into a private plan or the public government-run plan. it makes you wonder how the public option for everybody else would evolve over time. if you really want competitive bidding, do it for the whole program. >> let me put a plug for the book coming up pretty soon and then we'll ask chip to ask his question. i don't remember the title, but it's making this point. a book by roger feldman, brian dowd and bob cullen coming out some time this fall. >> actually, i just want to make a point of clarification. i'll start off by saying that i am with len and am a supporter of reform, but i think in the house bill and in the coming bills we have to be more careful about our numbers. i don't have them committed to memory, but the hospital number in the house bill is about 155 in terms of savings and frankly, they're the old-fashioned kind of safings with some except

bob reich proposed in the past, i don't know if he's still for it. some versions of competitive bidding where everybody in medicare wouldet the same voucher and they would pick where they would go into a private plan or the public government-run plan. it makes you wonder how the public option for everydy else would evolve over time. if you really want competitive bidding, dit for the whole program. >> lete put a plug for the book coming up pretty soon and then we'll ask chip to ask his question. i don't remember the title, but it's making this point. a bo by roger feldma brian dowd and bob cullen coming out some te this fall. >> actually, i just want to make a point of clarification. i' sta off by saying that i am with len and am a supporter of reform, but i think in the house bl and in the coming bills we have to be more careful about our numbers. i n't have them committed to memory, but the hospital number in theouse bill is about 15 in terms of savings and frankly, they're the old-fashied kind of safings with some exceptions maybe for re-adssions