the most extraordinary was bobby muller. dynamic,charismatic, captivating speaker. i still show the clip about this is where he talked about being shot in the chest. bobby was paralyzed from the chest down. he talked about the transformation on the soldiers themselves. he said the guys that went in and murdered 500 people, they w ere us. they were the good guys. they were the little league or -- leaguers. they were the choirboys. they experienced killing, and the process got transformed. i can tell you about my own transformation, from a good guy to a guy that left when -- laughed when kids got wasted. don't think it is some species of human beings. everyone of you can be turned that he would find inconceivable. -- you would find inconceivable. others come into class. the policyl with aspects. i kept trying to get robert mcnamara to come in. he was always friendly. he would always return my calls. i could not get him in. i invited him to come in with dan ellsberg, which was a mistake. [laughter] however, i got smarter. in highs best friend school, one time we were w