border patrol agents. ultimately, the big question is how much is enough? when is it going to be determined that using technology and infrastructure along the border has reached the point of enough capability? the government accountability office came out with the report a couple of months ago saying that only 15% of the southwest border is actually under effective control. the department disputes that, and they say that there is some issues in terms of how you define control. not every area of the border needs to have the presence of fencing or technology if you are using other forms of technology, like unmanned drones to watch what is happening along the surface. how do you address the issue of border security through other means which include reforming the nation's immigration system, which include addressing the problems taking place in mexico with the warring drug cartels and the drugs coming into the night to states and have to address the drug issues within the country. host:the gao about a graphic o

there are several border patrol agents. 1994 there are 4,000 border patrol agents. by 2,000 there are 9,000 border patrol agents. anyone know the figures today? 20,000 border patrol agents. funding and immigration enforcement essentially doubled since 2004. what we see is for current policy has not been effective. what we see again is the answer has not been to try something different which is to have a legal evolve for people to work legally. just keep spending more and more money on the same thing. i hope some of the facts presented in the paper help us continue on a path where we can think about no longer having a policy where we just keep spending more money on the same policy. thank you. [applause] >> i am dennis frank sharry with american voice. stuart has done a capable and admirable job laying out the facts on this the date. he is one of the top thinkers and researchers and policymakers, complex area for many years and i have to say it is nice to be working with the cato institute. it is nice to see dan griswald who works on trade and immigration studies and

border. he was patrolling outside of his regular community. this individual would not have been caught by operation stone garden funding. we are not limited to the borders of themselves. the chairman has mentioned a gao report that is of tremendous concern for me that indicates that ice is only advocating about 3% of its resources to target individuals who are here illegally because they have overstayed their visas. they came legally in the first place, but now they are here illegally. it is an enormous number. it is more than one-third. it is between 33% and 40% of the number of people here illegally. another report by g l which examines the visa security -- by the gao which examines the visa security program -- the u.s. only has offices at 19 of the 57 high risk posts. the gao further found ongoing turf battles between ice and at the state department, which are simply unacceptable when it comes to dealing with the terrorist threat. i look forward to discussing these issues with the secretary today and i thank you for her appearance. >> secret

border. he was patrolling outside of his regular community. s individual would not have been caught by operation stone garden funding. we are not limited to the borders of themselves. the chairman has mentioned a gao report that is of tremendous concern for me that indicates that ice is only advocating about 3% of its resources to target individuals who are here illegally because they have overstayed their visas. they came legally in the first place, but now they are here illegally. it is an enormous number. it is more than one-third. it is between 33% and 40% of the number of people here illegally. another report by g l which examines the visa security -- by the gao which examines the visa security program -- the u.s. only has offices at 19 of the 57 high risk posts. the gao further found ongoing turf battles between ice and at the state department, which are simply unacceptable when it comes to dealing with the terrorist threat. i look forward to discussing these issues with the secretary today and i thank you for her appearance. >> secretary

they said we needed to triple the border patrol. we're now they're going to say we need to quadruple the border patrol. or they'll want a higher fence. maybe they will need a moat. maybe they want alligators in the moat. (laughter) >> stephen: a moat with alligators, why does that idea sound so familiar and brilliant to me? >> we need two walls, we feed a moat. a want a 20 foot high wall 2,000 miles long you can see from space. a moat. >> i'm just saying a moat with some alligators in it. (cheers and applause) it's sad. the president isn't just writing my coattails he's riding my moat tails. frankly, this fits the pattern for obama. he stole my idea for moat gators just like he stole president bush's idea confi killing can bin laden. (laughter) >> stephen: and george washington's idea of being president. of course obama still refuses to release bin laden's death pictures. why, did they not get a good photo? he couldn't have been blinking. everyone wants to see it. even npr. >> they must be pretty bad if you can't show them on radio.

denmark brings back border patrols. and are wedding vows taken too literally?very president of the united states, it seems, has to have some irish blood. the latest to seek out his shamrock roots is barack obama who's to visit the village from which his great, great, great grandfather, a shoemaker's son, left for the world. obama mania has gripped the community as it prepared to welcome its most famous son -- well, great, great, great, grandson. ♪ >> welcome to ireland. this main road links dublin to the southwest. there's no real reason to stop in this small village. if it wasn't for the connection that it has to the most powerful man in the world. barack obama has irish roots. some of his ancestors came from moneygal and there's paperwork to prove it. four years ago a priest got a phone call. genologists from the united states had researched obama's roots and found moneygal. two hours later the priest unconcerninged the forgotten certificates in the archives. >> the president is connected in that his third great grandfather emigrated from this parish in 1850.

, no virtual fence, no physical fence, we are open for business for the drug trade despite the border patrol, the limited folks, they are doing all they can. it is such a massive border. it requires more help than is currently there. we width stood belittling from the president as he stood in el paso, texas, where just within a few miles 3,000 people had been killed in the last year, just across our border. the violence spilling over into the united states. and the president chose this time and location to belittle those who say we should secure our border, we should comply with our oath. we have an obligation to provide for the common defense. that includes securing our borders. and the president wants to belittle those of us who say, let's keep our oath. let's keep faith with the american people. by defending them, by defending our sovereignty. this administration, on the other hand, the very administration that makes light of those who say let's secure our border, let's protect our people, and instead of doing that, say, you know what, arizona, 30 miles or so of border with mexico, and wi

. >> they said we needed to triple the border patrol. now they're going to say we need to quadruple the border patrol or they'll want a higher fence. maybe they'll need a moat. maybe they'll want alligators in the moat. they'll never be satisfied. >> meanwhile a new poll shows the president's approval rating is at its highest point in two years. 60% of those surveyed by the associated press now say they approve of the job he's doing and more than half say he deserves to be reelected. 73% are confident mr. obama can effectively handle terrorist threats and 52% like how he's handling the economy, the best rating since early in his presidency. >>> now to the latest on the fallout from the raid that killed osama bin laden. as intelligence analysts pour over materials retrieved from bin laden's compound al qaeda is warning the u.s. has made a mistake and big one. tara mergener is in washington with the latest on that. good morning to you. >> reporter: good morning to you, betty. that message has been posted on extremist websites. bin laden's

border. he was patrolling well outside his regular community. is individual simply would not have been caught with of that funding korea finally, the effort to secure our borders is not limited to the border itself. as the chairman have mentioned, a gao report that is of tremendous concern to me that indicates that ice is only allocating about 3% of its resources to target individuals who are here illegally because they have overstayed their visas. they can legally in the first place, but now, they are here illegally. and it is an enormous number. it is more than one-third. it is between 33% and more than 40% of the number of people in here illegally. they fall into that category. another report by geo in advance the security program which deploys affects special agents to posts to help to identify tariff and threats. according to the gao, the u.s. only have some at 19 of the 57 high-risk posed. the gao further found ongoing turf battle between ice and the state department which are simply unacceptable when it comes to dealing with a terrorist th

border. he was patrolling outside of his regular community. this individual would not have been caught by operation stone garden funding. we are not limited to the borders of themselves. the chairman has mentioned a gao report that is of tremendous concern for me that indicates that ice is only advocating about 3% of its resources to targ individuals who are here illegally because they have overstayed their visas. they came legally in the first place, but now they are here illegally. it is an enormous number. it is more than one-third. it is between 33% and 40% of the number of people here illegally. another report by g l which examines the visa security -- by the gao which examines the visa security program -- the u.s. only has offices at 19 of the 57 high risk posts. the gao further found ongoing turf battles between ice and at the state department, which are simply unacceptable when it comes to dealing with the terrorist threat. i look forward to discussing these issues with the secretary today and i thank you for her appearance. >> secretar

or now they're going to say we need to quadruple the border patrol or they'll want to hire fence maybe they'll need a moment. or maybe the one alligators in the bay. they'll never be satisfied and i understand that that's politics band will never be satisfied it's not just politics it's races but you know let's just review some of the realities here just basic econ one hundred one first of all you have more workers it depresses wages so this is one of the legitimate. hits on illegal immigration before reagan but we saw in historically in the united states in fact before the reagan presidency about a half a million people would come north from mexico during the picking season and about a half a million people would go south every year there had been a verity of programs to try to accommodate them or legalize them the berserker program for example back in the sixty's was essentially exploitative but it was an attempt but that's how it was then reagan did two things number one he granted this amnesty the brought you know millions of people three million four million depends on whose

we have increased the size of the border patrol to more than twice the size it was in 2004. i now have a quarter of all the personnel in the southwest border region -- more than ever. we did all but 3 miles of the pants and called for by congress. for the first time, unmanned aerial aircraft's capability covered the entire southwest border from california to texas providing aerial surveillance to personnel on the ground. they are being supplemented by critical security improvements at the northern border including additional agents, technology, and infrastructure as well as strong, serious, and strategic enforcement of immigration laws in the interior of the united states. as someone who has lived most of her life in border states and has worked with public officials are dealing with water-related issues since 1993, i can say from personal experience that the steps that haveeen taken constitute the most comprensive and dedicated effort to strengthen border security that we have ever deployed. of the past two years, seizures of contraband has risen in all categories -- drugs,

we were there in the middle of the night with border patrol, where they were patrolling the border. have cane that might be 15, 20 feet high, very dark night. how do you watch, how few control the border? this is why we got to provide the technology, the personnel to our border patrol. in fact, i just added an amendment to the national defense authorization bill that we're debating right now that i'm asking the military of the united states of america to use the latest technology, use the border as a laboratory so we can use that technology that's worked in other areas so we can prevent technology, to prevent people from coming in. so i'm looking at all aspects. just because i'm a democrat doesn't mean i'm strong on border security. we are -- i believe in strong border security. i just want to do it the right way. the problem is not solved by saying ask them nicely to leave. we need our enforcement on the border and interior enforcement also to get them out of the united states. host: let's go to florida, tamarac, tony. caller: good morning. good morning, representative cuellar. i w

we're now going to say we need to quadruple the border patrol or they'll want to hire fence. maybe they'll need a boat. maybe the alligators in the boat. and while some of the finger pointing at republicans is fair can the president really blame it all on them and is that strategy going to be enough to win the latino vote in two thousand and twelve you and me to discuss this is attorney angel reyes author of hispanic heresy what is the impact of america's the largest population of immigrants angel thank you so much for joining us tonight for starters i want your thoughts on this speech today from the president i mean it was a lot of grandstanding a lot of promises again but it was it just looks like he's back in campaign mode to you i mean we know that republicans are going to go for any type of comprehensive immigration reform so is he just having fun pointing fingers and trying to make himself look like the good guy without actually having anything to back that up bill today you know president really absolutely look at least partly the republicans who are the. grassley and

progress that has been made, it's because of legislation that i introduced to increase the number of border patrolrovide technology and fencing on the border. when the president suggests that is enough, we have been trying to tell him for a long time, come to the boarder in arizona and you will see it's not enough. there is still some to go. if the president says we're done, we are not going to do anymore, we will never stop illegal immigration in the country so we can then get on to solving the problems of those here illegally. let me make a quick point, chris. >> chris: we're running out of time. >> real quickly. >> chris: okay. real quick. >> good. the analogy is this, you have every faucet in your house on, your tub is overflowing, the sinks is overflowing, what do you do first? get towels and sop up the water or turn off the faucets? we have to turn off the faucet of illegal immigration and then we can turn to the other issues. >> chris: senator durbin, we have less than a minute left. the g.a.o. says -- g.a.o., a nonpartisan organization in the government -- that the government that we have

but it is foolish for us to think we can just keep hiring more an more border patrol, we've more than doubled our border patrol and back off up into the desert 70 or 100 miles and gip chasing people around in the sage brush. that's not the way to do this we need to shut off the bleeding at the border. -- at the border. this isn't a recreational sport to be defending our border and chasing people down in the desert. if we can stop them before they get into the united states that is the preferred way to go. i've gone across the english channel from england over to calais, france where the brits have leased a chunk of ground because they want to stop the illegals before they get across the canal, across the channel. and so they've leased this piece of ground from the french and they set up high security system there and the trucks that come through go on ferries and the ferry hauls them across the english channel. cars and trucks a constant rotation of ferries across the english channel. the british leased this piece of ground they raised their technology and their manpower there, to pre

a border patrol, sometimes during the patrol, including aircraft that can either detect i.e.d.'s or jam the signals that detonate i.e.d.'s using radio interference and then after the fact, whenever there is a blast, you have to call in a disposal team or a forensics team depending on whether there are more explosives present or if there are just craters. i.e.d.'s have the effect of limiting where patrols can go. the exact a high price of every mile. they slow everyone down because every ied and of being an hourlong process of recovering the casualties, dragging the vehicle out of the crater, and investigating the blast site to determine what happened and who was responsible. it goes on and on and on to the point where the province of afghanistan is and ied-centric site. most of the soldiers to an attempt at countermeasures. what is left after you clear out the hamster wheel of the ied fight is a few people with a few days and months to spend trying to change attitudes and afghanistan and reform the country. >> the freelance video journalist was embedded in march and april. it wa

border patrol agents were killed in a collision with a train. their suv was hit by a freight train thursday about 85 miles southwest of phoenix. the department of homeland security says agents eduardo rojas and hector clark were trying to position their vehicle to catch illegal immigrants from mexico. >>> now to the flooding in the mississippi delta, where more heavy rain is expected today. the mississippi and its tributaries continue to rise, as the flood crest surges south. 11 counties in mississippi have been declared federal disaster areas. the damage estimate there has reached $275 million. thousands of acres are flooded with hundreds of homes lost. down river in louisiana cajun country, engineers are hoping to save the cities. but at the expense of farmland. and the people who live there. the action will affect hundreds of thousands of acres, and tens of thousands of residents. yesterday, the army corps of engineers opened more of a major spillway north of new orleans, and it's considering doing the same at the morganza spillway near baton

consonant to an emphatic when i devoted however avoided an emotional decision despite calls for border patrol to stay on a ledge in germany portugal and the netherlands also came up through france who are . now following a disappointing time at the beijing olympics three years ago russian weightlifters seem to be on the up again russians managing secure. the recent european championships but with the london games drawing ever closer improvement remains an assessor take it was an impressive showing by the home nation is than russia's women topping four out of seven eight categories while the men claimed five stomach finishes however all but one of those pictures came in a heavier weight categories which means there's still much work to be down the scales a point of note also asian powerhouses china and south korea were of course not a vote. coming world championships in paris should provide a clearer picture of how far russia progressed. as normal but the main role is to get ourselves ready for the olympic games in london we haven't just started our preparations the day we started them straigh

mauls i'm president of border patrol measures. plus russia and the world commemorate sixty six years of victory over the nazi fascist followers of ukraine's harnessed universally by attacking war veterans. let's argue so be sure and he said down with russia's education and science minister andriy for sanko who believes the country's education system needs reform. and they don't seem to refuse ministry of education it's great to have you with us we used to be very proud of the soviet educational system when heritage say that our sixth grade school student studies things that american students on study until four years into the university course they're one of the reforms out of what is going to change not only in the system but more importantly in the mentality. of people who first of all we indeed used to have a good educational system like what we did was very adapted to the country we lived in at the time and it had its flaws one such issue was that when the country changed completely those who had previously received a good edu

20,000 border patrol agents. funding on immigration enforcement is across programs has essentially doubled since 2004. what we see is that the current policy is not effective, has not been effective, and what we see, although -- what we see again as the answer c shows is that the answer has not been to try something different which is to have a legal valve for people to come in and work legally, but the answer has been to keep spending more and more money essentially on the same thing. i hope some of the facts presented in the paper help this continue on a path where we can think about no longer having a policy of where we simply just keep spending more money on the same policies that really have not worked. thank you. [applause] >> well, thank you, stuart. i'm frank sharry, a group with america's voice. stuart has done a very capable and admirable job of laying autothe facts of the debate. he's been one the top thinkers and researchers and policymakers on this controversial and complex area for many years, and i

20,000 border patrol agents. funding on immigration enforcement cross-programs have essentially doubled since 2004. what we see is that the current policy is not effective -- has not been effective. and what we see -- but what we see again as the answer c shows is that the answer has not been to try something different, which is to have a legal valve for people to qwork in and it's for people to keep working illegally as people come in. i hope some of the facts in the paper help us continue on a path where we can think about no longer having a policy where we simply just keep spending more money on the same policies that really have not worked. thank you. [applause] >> well, thank you, stuart. my name is frank sharry. stuart has been one of the top researchers and policymakers on this controversial and complex area for many years. and i have to say it's really nice to be back working with the cato institute. it's great to see dan griswold who leads this effort for cato on trade and immigration studies and has als

i think one of the statistics that the border patrol puts out is that they only have 15%, 15%, operational control. what do we need to do to secure the border? because i was shocked and surprid. i went for hours in places right along the border where there's nothing more tha a barb wire fence cut in many places and never even saw an agent. we're pouring lo of resources into it, but what in your opinion do we actually have to do to secure the border? because it's not happening. >> the situation along the border is better now than it prably ever has been, wich isn't to say -- >> but how do you come to that conclusion? >> you base it on the number of people who are stopped, the amount of drugs we recover, the amount of guns -- >> so that stat goes up, the number of apprehensions goes up, is it better or if the number of apprehensions goes down, is it better? >> well, it depends on a whole bunch of things. certainly a function of the number of people trying to get in, it also is a function of how effeive our enforcement efforts are, which is not to say there aren't issues, still problems along

20,000 border patrol agents.ding and immigration enforcement is across programs -- it has doubled since 2004. what we see is that the current policy is not effective. has not been affected. and what we see again, as answer c shows, the answer has not been to try something different, which is to have a legal file for people to work legally, but the answer is to spend more money on essentially the same thing. i hope some of the facts in the paper to help us continue on a path where we can think about a policy where we keep spending money on the same policies that really have not worked. thank you. [applause] >> thank you, staurt. -- stuart. stuart has done an admirable job laying out the facts of this debate. he has been as the leading policymakers for the controversial area for many years. i have to say, it is really good to be back working with cato institute. it is good to see my colleagues to a done some brilliant writing and research on this. comprehensive immigration reform was much more of a bipartisan effor

illegal was found just weapons and armor that a former marine may legally possess as well as a border patrol baseball hat and the police try to claim or the law enforcement uniform of the story we began covering here on the alert to show weeks ago but now more details have emerged including a video released by the department of police. this unfortunately is a scene that we see or read about far too often raids gone wrong turning violent innocent men and women killed but they rarely make the news like the casey anthony's of the world to you so joining me to discuss why that is is radley balko senior writer for the huffington post bradley always great to have you on the show now you've been covering the story pretty extensively and the story itself has changed very time surprise surprise can you walk us through some of the inconsistency. chair. in a county sheriff's department originally said that mr crane ahead fired at them they later changed that story to say that actually i don't we had not fired but his rifle was the safety was still engaged after he was shot they're now saying this was o

. >> they said we needed to triple the border patrol. now, they are going to say we need to quadruple the border patrol or they will want a higher fence. maybe they will need a motor. maybe they will want alligators in the mote. they will never be satisfied. i understand. that is politics. >> reporter: it is politics for sure but on both sides. what the president is calling for doesn't stand a chance in this congress. the path to citizenship for 11 million undocumented immigrants. a visa reform tofor students an workers and to allow children to go to college of those that served in the military. mr. obama wants to know that the independent voters he will need next year know he is working on border security and that the hispanic voters know who to blame if nothing happens. erica? >> bill plante at the white house, thanks. joining us to discuss immigration reform and other issues, florida republican senator, marco rubio. sir, great to have you with us this morning. >> good morning. >> immigration seems to be this issue that comes up every

20,000 border patrol agents.n immigration enforcement, you know, across programs, has essentially doubled just since 2004. what we see is that the current policy is not -- has not been effective. and what we see, again, as the answer c shows, is that the answer has not been to try something different, which is to have a legal valve for people to come in and work legally. the answer has been to just keep spending more and more money, essentially, on the same thing. i hope some of the facts presented in the paper help us continue on a path where we can think about no longer having a policy where we simply just keep spending more money on the same policies that really have not worked. thank you. [applause] >> thank you, stuart. my name is dennis frank sharry with a group called america's voice. stuart has done a very capable and admirable job of laying out the facts of this debate. he has been one of the top thinkers and researchers and policymakers on this controversial and complex area for many years. i have to sa

i think one of the statistics that the border patrol puts out is that they only have 15%, 15%, operational control. what do we need to do to secure the border? because i was shocked and surprised. i went for hours in places right along the border where there's nothing more than a barbed wire fence cut in many places and never even saw an agent. we're pouring a lot of resources into it, but what in your opinion do we actually have to do to secure the border? because it's not happening. >> the situation along the border is better now than it probably ever has been, which isn't to say -- >> but how do you come to that conclusion? >> you base it on the number of people who are stopped, the amount of drugs we recover, the amount of guns -- >> so if that stat goes up, the number of apprehensions goes up, is it better or if the number of apprehensions goes down, is it better? >> well, it depends on a whole bunch of things. certainly a function of the number of people trying to get in, it also is a function of how effective our enforcement efforts are, which is not to say there aren't issues, stil

on t >>> a fast moving freight train collided with an suv killing two border patrol agents 85 miles southwest of phoenix. the train operators tried to get the drivers's attention by blowing their horn. they were rushing to help other agents chasing a group of suspected illegal immigrants. >>> president obama plans to ask congress to extend the term of fbi director robert muller by two years. he was the u.s. attorney in san francisco before taking the fbi job just prior to the 2001 terrorist attacks. he is limited to one ten year term but the white house wants him to stay on during a change of leadership at the defense department and the cia. one of the biggest jumbo jets in the world suddenly hit by a massive mid air lightning strike. the incident is raising questions about how planes and passengers surp vieiv survive t hits. here is lisa stark. >> it looks terrifying. a massive ligh lightning striks the air bus as it comes in for landing. despite the jolt, the people onboorpd and the plane are all fine. no injuries or damage. >>> in february, a jetblue flight was hi

border. we have patrol boats and larger cutters out to sea. most of our migrant vectors are down in terms of number of people. we have seen a slight rise in the last couple of months in hash yans. all those numbers are down. i believe everything points back to us having a persistent presence out there, maintaining the cutters and air kaft out there. and people know that and a policy ofeturning migrants to their home country when we pick them up. we're increasingly challenged because of the difficulty in keeping the old ships running out there and keeping them out on station. >> describe the process for me, if you would, you're in the gulf. you come across a makeshift boat. there's 45 illegal imgranmigran trying to reach land. you intercept that. what happens from that point forward? in terms of those individuals. they're brought on the boat, brought on shore. where are they detained, how are they -- what's the process? >> that is the value of the multimission cutters that we have. flight decks for landing helicopters. we can accommodate large

he said his administration has met every demand, tripling the size of the border patrol, building a fencend slowing the flow of illegal immigrants. >> for now they're going to say we to quadruple the border control or the wont hire fence maybe they will need a moat. maybe they want alligators in the moat. house speaker john bainer said he is not satisfied. he said ending the violence that live border becomes immigration reform. the president said crime is already down. it's dropped by a third, were consistently among the safest in the nation. texas congressman release statistics comparing the crime rates to painter's home state. ohio seven major cities are all in the top 50 most dangerous. compare that to the towns along the mexican border almost all of them are below the national average. the president's mockery of the republicans as a departure from his usual appeal to compromise and cooperation. some analysts believe he's all but given up any reform legislation before next year's presidential election. >>catherine: people who live in memphis tennessee said that city is practically unre

government has poured all these resources into securing the border and doubling the border patrol so he says now is the time the border is secure and the president is going to ask congress to once again begin immigration reform talks. >> warner: thank you so much. >> thank you, margaret. >> warner: again, the major developments of the day. residents of memphis, tennessee, braced for the mississippi river to crest at near-record levels. on the newshour tonight, mayor a.c. wharton said his city is prepared. the danger will last for weeks after the river crests. and the prime minister of pakistan rejected allegations his country's military and intelligence services were incompetent or complicit in hiding osama bin laden. and to hari sreenivasan, for what's on the newshour online. hari? >> sreenivasan: our coverage continues on the rising mississippi river. watch our full interview with a reporter eleanor boudreau from wkno in memphis and read a q&a with flood historian john barry. health correspondent betty ann bowser reports on a new study of autism, showing its prevalence in south kore

. >> these french border police are patrolling the italian border. they have been checking people's documents as if the agreement on free travel through europe did not exist. france says a large number of refugees trying to cross from italy into france means the border police are exempt from the normal rules. now the french and italian leaders say that the accord needs to be reviewed, and they're upping the pressure on brussels to take action. >> after talks with member states, we will explore the possibility of suspending the accord in specific cases. >> the european parliament will call on the european commission to insist on the ability of the accord. >> we do not head of an emergency situation that would require us to cancel key european treaties. >> what is clear is that there is a real emergency situation on the mediterranean island. 2500 refugees fleeing libya arrived there last weekend alone. the pressure group, doctors without borders, says italy is not providing adequate care for the refugees. >> europe should do what it is required to. and