with me now is brad raffensperger, part of me says he needs no introduction, probably the nose famoustary of state in the country these days. mr. raffensperger, i appreciate you coming on. nice to see you. >> good to see you. >> let me just simply start with this question, if donald trump had carried the state of georgia would there be new election laws in georgia taking place today? >> i believe so because for many years when i ran actually in 2018 i said we need to move away from signature match and move tors an objective measure like driver's license number. what was adapted in sp-202 is similar to what they're using in minnesota for absentee ballot voters. that's good solid election reform. >> okay. is taking away the powers of your office good solid election reform or response to what happened in the 2020 election? >> well, removing me as the chairman of the state election board, the decision the general assembly made, not one i supported but at the end of the day i do believe making sure we have accountability to counties that continually fail because we have had one county at l

. >> brad raffensperger didn't check the signatures in violation of the law.rger thinks that was fine but it was illegal. i'm not about relitigating 2020. i'm saying as we go into the midterms and into another presidential election i have a simple idea. follow the election laws. for democrat voters and for republican voters. if we're going to do more mail-in ballots we have to make sure you're he legally on the list and have you to verify it through your signature. i think it's a very american idea. if we don't do that, we'll have chaos in our election system. people won't agree that the elections are sound. and our nation will further split apart. what i'm saying is a very, very common sense thing. eric: eric: and we -- i get cut off by the computer. i'd like to continue with this another time. >> i'd love to continue it. i think people need to know if facts. we have to start reclaiming things that aren't true. they they didn't check signatures on ballots. can't do that anymore. we don't know how big it was. it was big fluff to make a big impact in the import

. >> uh-huh. >> where's president trump asked brad raffensperger to find 11,780 votes to overturn the georgia election. >> yep. >> and in georgia -- and basically, election experts, at that time, did not think that folks would prosecute that particular behavior, in that call, under the state and federal-election laws. because the evidence wasn't what they wanted. but now, the -- the evidence is starting to pile up. and um, we have to ask ourselves the question, what other types of calls exist? we know about the raffensperger call. we know about this doj call. who else did he talk to? and what did he ask them to do, as well? >> yeah, you're right, in that there are similarities to that call, as well. play this out for me. let's say he had called rosen at the department of justice. and rosen had done his bidding. um, or someone had done his bidding or -- or trump put his guy in place and did their -- what -- what would the effect of that be? end of december, 2020. department of justice comes out and says what trump wants 'em to say. the elections were corrupt. what do you think happens

acting attorney general in december of 2020 which sound very much like the phone call he made to brad raffensperger in georgia which sounds similar to the phone call he made to the president of ukraine asking for favors, asking people to sow doubt in the minds of the public about joe biden in particular. but about the election. you were a manager in the second impeachment. you didn't know this information, but i think we kind of all knew it. >> well, exactly right. so while it is shocking that a leader of the free world and elected president of the united states would desperately call and say call it corrupt i'll take it from there. it shouldn't surprise us. that's one of three data points you pointed out that tells the intention and motivation of donald trump all along, whether june -- excuse me july 25th of 2019, when he called the president of ukraine, the call -- this call on december 2th after the election, and then as you point out the brad raffensperger call on january 2nd, saying i need you to find me 1,780 votes. one vote more than he lost the state by. this is the way he operated. what i

their office according to what they were supposed to do like the secretary of state of georgia, brad raffensperger or other individuals being purged. the executive director of the michigan republican party was basically just chased out of his job because he said trump lost. how do we preserve our democracy when a major political party is doing this? >> that's the problem. after watergate, we were all taught, well, the institutions held and we're resilient and the constitution held. and maybe that was the case then. right now i don't think the institution's held. it was that we were blessed to have certain few individuals of character. general milley, secretary raffensperger. i think bill's got a really powerful point. susan's reporting is going to be very different if you have a different general sitting there, a different defense secretary being ordered to fire on civil rights protesters to smash their skulls, according to the reporting that we've seen. it was this time it was the people. back when i was in government one of the mantras was personnel is policy. who you put there will determine wh

made in relation to that call that the then-president made to georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger, the infamous find me votes call. that was january 2nd. the voice mmail we just played u from kelly ward to hickman was made back on november 13. so this pressure campaign on state election officials began very soon after the vote. the giuliani call was made to hickman on december 4, and the white house switchboard calls, one on new year's eve, another on january 3rd. why is january 3rd especially significant? it's because the news broke of trump's call to raffensperger worldwide that day. that very same night, the white house was trying to get to hickman, get him on the line for the president, a president desperate to stay in power. pretty brazen stuff, right? so what exactly went through hickman's mind when he listened to those voicemails? i shall ask him. clint hickman joins me now, and clint, i should begin by playing for you and reading for you what the trump team's response was to this developing story. this was a statement they gave to to us. quote, it's no surprise that electi

what we heard in the tape with secretary brad raffensperger was clearly not appropriate, and i applaud these gentlemen for doing their job despite the political pressure on them and the potential consequences for not responding to these interference attempts. >> what's the status of the infamous audit? >> that's a great question. it seems like it was supposed to end this week, and now they've moved everything to another building at the fairgrounds. so, this is just indicative of the fact that they don't know what they're doing. they're making it up as they go along. and that the longer they drag this out the more they're able to continue fundraising off of this effort. >> what voting equipment and routers are you hiding from the former president as per the statement from his office that i just read? >> everything that was subject to the subpoena was turned over to the state senate. this is more misinformation designed to deflect and distract and undermine the integrity of the election we conducted and the integrity of the board of supervisors who continues to do their job, the jobs the

and meanwhile, in georgia, brad raffensperger does take the call and we all got to hear the sum and substance of it. so this was a guy who voted for donald trump, wanted donald trump to be reelected but knew enough to stay away when the former president who was then the president tried to meddle in the election outcome. >> i want to get your thoughts on something that i know has been weighing on your mind, mook l, -- michael, something that is relevant post fourth of july, the politicalization of the american flag. >> so it's funny because on radio recently going into the holiday weekend, i wondered aloud whether you could discern the political stripe of a neighbor by whether they were displaying the american flag, and brianna, i had a great conversation with the radio audience, and people would call and say, if i see one on the back of the pickup truck, i premium it's a trump supporter. i'm not sure i want to be perceived as a trump supporter. "the new york times" writes about this over the weekend, and of course it becomes a meme over on fox, oh, "the new york times," can you believe now th

three days later, news broke of trump's january 2nd phone call with georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger in which trump encouraged him to find enough votes to reverse trump's narrow lost their. hickman recalled listening to the leaked audio of that hour-long phone call on january 3rd after the washington post and other media outlets published the recording. i was horrified, hickman said. that same night, at 9:42 pm, approaching midnight in washington 9:42 pm, his phone doesn't agai. it was the same area code. he let it go to voice mail again. here is that voice mail from the white house operator on january 3rd. >> hello sir. this is the white house operator. i was calling to let you know that the presidents available to take your call if your free. if you could please give us a call back, sir, that be great. have a good evening. >> the man who could not get that phone call returned held a grotesque rally in florida on saturday night, under a boundary namely event we reserve-palooza. that plane was hired by an anti trump pack. with the state of florida and mourning over the deadly buildin

the call to brad raffensperger in september and the call to attorney general jeff rossen, milley had. and the fear was real and intensified as we got closer to january 6th. it wasn't just milley who had the concerns. the other leaders at the pentagon did as well. and milley and the joint chiefs, the heads of the army and air force and navy, the other branches of the military put together a plan of what they would do if president trump were to have issued some sort of order to the military as commander in chief that they considered unconstitutional or dangerous for the country. they were prepared to resign one by one in sort of a slow, steady succession of events all designed to delay the implementation of whatever illegal order came from the white house. >> remarkable book, phil. a lot of work by you and your colleague. thanks for joining us. phil rucker a senior correspondent with "the washington post," msnbc political analyst and the author of the book "i alone can fix it." >>> more on velshi. i'll be jund by julian castro, the hud secretary under obama. who is on the march for dem

we saw -- i mean, who knows if what would have happened in georgia if governor kemp and brad raffenspergerthe secretary of state, whether or not you like those guys, if somebody else had been there, who knows what would have happened? they upheld the law. same thing in maricopa county, and in arizona, same thing in michigan, there were individual republicans with integrity who stood up. none of what's being talked about here really would do anything to protect that. i agree with what ramesh is saying. >> i think a couple things are happening. first, states are trying to change laws so that exactly what you just detailed, the power of who controls these elections, secretaries of states, it's being shifted in many states, in michigan, this is what happened with the flint water crisis. they changed who actually was controlling, who was controlling the election. the for the people act is not a fix-all solution, but it definitely would make voting more accessible, would make it fair and put some backstops in like we saw with the john lewis voting rights act to make sure there is federal protect

although you heard praise from democrats for republican secretary of state brad raffensperger who otherst president trump's lies about the election at that time. this was another way to raise the stakes for why democrats believe these laws are so important to push back against and why georgia's in particular could be a key focus. >> and priscilla, over to you in austin, the standoff between texas republicans and democrats is now entering its second week. you have those texas democrats here in washington making headlines, you could argue for the wrong reasons. there are now five of them who have contracted covid, all of them say they have been vaccinated. meantime, you've got republicans there in austin still moving forward with their work. so bring us up to speed on the latest. >> reporter: yeah, geoff, that's right, five of those democratic lawmakers from texas in d.c. testing positive. some of the folks on the plane tweeting that they let their guard down by being on that plane without masks on, something average americans aren't yet able to do on commercial flights. as you mentioned,

there are a lot of eyes, of course, on the supreme court decision and brad raffensperger from the stategia and republicans have tried to make into a boogeyman oroville that they wanted to make it like there was fraud in georgia when there was no fraud. even republicans, of course, who stood up to the idea that the election was not stolen do want to see some voter restrictions put in place and this right here and today really underscores that point. >> and pete, of course, with the 6-3 decision, certainly cements a decision. we talked earlier that it was in some cases, 3-3-3, but the 6-3 is the dominating division on the court, and we've got the whole issue of steve breyer and when the longest serving justice -- not the longest serving justice and the 82-year-old steve breyer will make a decision under political pressure to step down because of what happened with ruth bader ginsburg and mitch mcconnell's vowed to not let democra replace a legal justice if the senate majority refers to the republicans in 2022. ? he's had no lack of people telling him what to do. the question is what is he

we have talked about this, laws that would remove the likes of brad raffensperger from the decisionmaking of the people in the commonwealth? >> it is clear that washington is not going to get the job done, and this issue is being left to the states. i would just respectfully push back slightly on what you said. they're not winning here in pennsylvania. they're not winning because we beat them in court and they're not winning because we have a democratic governor who will veto any of these bills if it reaches his desk. we must keep that veto pen in the governor's office to beat back these attempts to try to change the rules. understand, these republicans at the behest of donald trump keep trying to change the rules to make it harder for certain people's voices to be heard in our democracy, to try to rig the system in favor of them and their buddies. that is not something as the attorney general of pennsylvania i will allow. it is not something that the governor will allow. while they may be scoring some victories in certain states like georgia, they're not going to win here in pennsylvania

georgia over its new voting restrictions a good time to bring in georgia secretary of state brad raffenspergerretary of state to ever introduce photo i.d. for absentee ballots. that is what they're currently using in minnesota. so why is it okay for democrats to do it in minnesota but not republicans in georgia? we'll win on that. we'll win on every single point. i'm looking forward to meeting them, beating them in a court of law. "wall street journal" editorial this morning said doj should drop the suit. i would like to meet them in a court of law so we settle these issues in a court of law. ashley: i was interrupting you to mention "the wall street journal"'s op-ed which is very interesting. it said not only should the suit be dropped, but it was filed for pure political theater that they knew the writing was on the wall. they go on to say that georgia's rules are generally lenient and don't especially burden the ability of minorities to vote. that is correct, right? >> that is absolutely true. we have registrations, record turn out of all demographic groups. if you look at, we have people,

brad raffensperger held theline somebody installed there won't. >> absolutely.day of the father's i have a dream speech, the march on voting rights, because when you look at the fact, this will be an ongoing onslaught, which is why you need federal legislation. because the census taken last year will go intoic. they will use the same state legislative houses changing voting laws to gerrymander and bring down the numbers of us in the state legislatures. they have a master plan, in my opinion, to really overturn what happened in the voting rights and sill movement rights of the '60s and undermine democracy, because they will use that census data to try to redraw lines, which will draw people out of congress, out of the state legislatures. and we will be in a real intractable position unless we act now with federal law. >> so the speech in philadelphia where the president said this is the greatest civil democracy since the civil war. during that speech, he didn't mention leicester once. he did last night in support of the talking filibuster, some think helps but do

officials who spoke out against the conspiracy theory like liz cheney and secretary of state brad raffensperger, have become key for challengers. there are in forcing that lie on constituents or potential constituents. >> i don't believe they're stupid enough to belief the big lie but they are using it. it's a conspiracy theory born out of the belief that if my candidate doesn't win that i don't recognize the candidate. that's not democracy, that's what we see in tyrannical governments. that's what we see across the globe in not even democracies, but gene robinson, we have now -- korg this one, one out of three republicans seeking office so far are post-democracy candidates who are liberals who will not recognize the last election because they don't like who won that last election. here we are, and we have members of congress who refuse to come out and say that joe biden is president of the united states. that he won legitimately. and we have, of course, talk show hosts on the trump right who do the same thing. but this is an anti-democracy movement and we're now seeing that, actually, people a

and had there been somebody else different in milley's seat or somebody else different in brad raffensperger'st -- obviously i'm going to a different place now, but how with four or five individuals in places of power influence how this coup would have and could have taken place. that's the frightening thing we were a few people away from going over the edge. the other thing is with all these books coming out, is this changing one voter's opinion of these people cpac still giving trump 70% in the straw poll, the trump devotees. is any of this swaying one person? my cynical gut tells me no. i'm going to go to one thing i read yesterday in a poll, seems unrelated but one of the most stunning things i read. in a poll they asked 66% of southern republicans given the choice was succeed from the union, if you could be a bunch of states in the south and not part of the country, would you agree? two out of three said yeah. that's kind of the underpinning here as we sit aghast of all of this, that there's a chunk of this country that wants to take our democracy apart that doesn't believe the basic tena