brad silverberg, the founding partner of ignition partners. and as much as brad might be a bull of microsoft, initially he was bullish, he did concede a lot of the problems a lot of the bears in microsoft will say and that is maybe that microsoft was late to the tablet game, maybe windows 8 isn't as revolutionary as it should be, that the apps are a problem and how do you generate that virtuous cycle that you need to get apps going on this thing. >> all that is true. and even some -- the surface to me was -- i thought it looked great. however, sometimes that doesn't matter. and to your point, maybe they are too late. i own the stock. it's been disappointing. he was talking about if they can do this, if they can't. what if -- what if they can't? what if the surface bombs in what's next for microsoft? >> i think people buy these things, as i said, about -- for the apps. and the problem is you're not going to see people start to make these apps that go with windows until they see the sales of this machine. now, obviously this machine right out of