in salt lake city brad wilcox, director of the in fact marria national marriage. from seattle, stephanie kunz, she's director of research and education for the council on contemporary families and stephanie kunz, let me start with you. is this a new norm or really. >> the age of marriage has been rising. i don't think that marriage is on its way out. most people will marry eventually. but one of the big differences is that people are taking longer to get married, and marriage no longer organizes every life change, every transition, every decision we make. and the result is that we have to be much more open than we used to be to the idea that you just can't expect that all married people will have obligations, and unmarried people will not. >> brad wilcox, if you look at what's happened over the past couple of decades have we, without really realizing it, flipped the script? when i got married during the carter administration, it's shocking to say, the idea was well, of course, people don't have much when they get married. and they make this alliance voluntarily, a