let's also hear from dr stephen brearey, who used to work in the neonatal unit, he led the team of sevening tojudith moritz. if we go back to the summer of 2015, when did you first become concerned? a review of the care of all three babies was done, and there was nothing in common that we could pin these three deaths on. but the staff analysis did identify that lucy letby was on shift for those three episodes. and did that worry you? well, i think i can remember saying, oh no, it can't be lucy, nice lucy. tell me about when you remember first meeting lucy letby. i don't recall the first time that i met lucy letby. she started work in 2012. she didn't strike me as too different to most nurses on the unit. you didn't have any worries about her doing thejob? i don't think anybody did. it is something that nobody really wants to consider, you know, that a member of staff might be harming the babies under your care. can you give us a sense of what was happening in the unit over the summer and autumn of 2015 in terms of there being more unexplained collapses and deaths? it was the first time i

that night, dr brearey called a senior hospital manager. he asked her to stop lucy letby working.lenged her. i said, "well, are you saying that you're making this "decision against the wishes of seven consultant paediatricians?" and she said, yes." and i said, "well, if you're making this decision, "are you taking responsibility for anything that might "happen tomorrow to any other of our babies?" and she said, yes." and, um, the phone call stopped shortly afterwards. the following day, another baby almost died while lucy letby was on duty. she was finally removed from the neonatal unit three weeks later. the suspicious incidents stopped. news presenter: a doctor has told a court that he felt extremely - uncomfortable at the thought of the nurse lucy letby- being alone with a baby girl. yes, and today, we had evidence not just about lucy letby herself, but also the way in which the countess of chester hospital is said to have dealt with doctors' concerns. at the trial in manchester, one of the seven consultants has criticised the hospital in court. what today's shown in my mind is

the bbc put dr brearey�*s comments to nhs england.inted to their updated freedom to speak policy that the bbc put dr brearey�*s comments to nhs england. they pointed to their updated freedom to speak policy that they say every trust is expected to adopt. well, it appears the government is open to the idea of nhs bosses facing tougher regulation. here's education secretary gillian keegan speaking to our political correspondent damian grammaticas. i think that's something that should be part of the inquiry. obviously, not only are there the answers that families need and families deserve, but there are also clearly going to be lessons that need to be learned from this case, so i think the inquiry will be something that, hopefully, can look at that in great detail. live now to professor philip banfield, british medical association council chair. thank forjoining thank for joining us thank forjoining us here on bbc news. first of all let's just get your reaction to these calls for tougher regulation of management? well, i mean it is not a

paediatrician steve brearey rang the duty manager asking for her to be replaced.anager refused. i challenged her. i said, "are you saying that you are making this decision against the wishes of seven consultant paediatricians?" and she said yes. and i said, "well, if you are making this decision, are you taking responsibility of anything that might happen tomorrow to any of our babies?" and she said yes. letby went to work, and a baby unexpectedly collapsed. we were urging them to investigate our concerns appropriately, and most of us felt the most appropriate way to do that would be to go to the police. the response from the medical director was unsupportive. in an e—mail to the paediatricians obtained by panorama, ian harvey wrote, "action is being taken." all e—mails ceased forthwith. the police were not called. instead, in september 2016, the royal college of paediatrics and child health was asked to carry out a review of the neonatal unit. it urged the trust to investigate each death individually. this didn't happen. around this time, lucy letby launched a gr

paediatrician steve brearey rang the duty manager asking for letby to be replaced.lenged her. i said, "well, are you saying that you're making this decision against the wishes of seven consultant paediatricians?" and she said, "yes." and i said, "well, if you're making this decision, are you taking responsibility of anything that might happen tomorrow to any other of our babies?" and she said, "yes." letby went to work, and a baby unexpectedly collapsed. we were urging them to investigate our concerns appropriately, and most of us felt the most appropriate way to do that would be to go to the police. the response from the medical director was unsupportive. in an e—mail to the paediatricians obtained by panorama, ian harvey wrote, "action is being taken. all e—mails cease forthwith." the police were not called. instead, in september 2016, the royal college of paediatrics and child health was asked to carry out a review of the neonatal unit. it urged the trust to investigate each death individually. this didn't happen. around this time, lucy letby launched a grievance

paediatrician steve brearey rang the duty manager asking for letby to be replaced. her. i said, "well, are you saying that you're making this decision against the wishes of seven consultant paediatricians?" and she said, "yes." and i said, "well, if you're making this decision, are you taking responsibility for anything that might happen tomorrow to any other of our babies?" and she said, "yes." letby went to work, and a baby unexpectedly collapsed. we were urging them to investigate our concerns appropriately, and most of us felt the most appropriate way to do that would be to go to the police. the response from the medical director was unsupportive. in an e—mail to the paediatricians obtained by panorama, ian harvey wrote, "action is being taken. all e—mails cease forthwith." the police were not called. instead, in september 2016, the royal college of paediatrics and child health was asked to carry out a review of the neonatal unit. it urged the trust to investigate each death individually. this didn't happen. around this time, lucy letby launched a grievance proc

the bbc put dr brearey�*s comments to nhs england and they pointed to their updated freedom to speakon said... well, it appears the government is open to the idea of nhs bosses facing tougher regulation, as our political correspondent, damian grammaticas, told me a little earlier. i was talking to the education secretary a little bit earlier this morning. so this obviously isn't her area, health, but it's the big issue around at the minute. so i put it to her and said, you know, these calls coming, as you heard there from the senior doctors at the hospital who warned about lucy, told, their managers said the managers, the managers didn't take action in that case. those senior doctors saying they think nhs managers should be regulated, professionally observed and scrutinised and held to standards just as doctors and nurses are. what the education secretary, gillian keegan, told me is that she said that the inquiry that's going on or that will be going on and looking into this whole case should consider all of these issues in the round, she said, including what lessons need to be learn

dr stephen brearey said his initial concerns about the nurse were not immediately acted upon — and hiswith the problem and you come away confused and anxious because that problem is being turned away in which you start to realise that they are seeing you as a problem, doctors and nurses will have the regulatory bodies that we have to answer to and quite often and see senior managers who have no apparent accountability for what they do in our trusts and you worry about their future actions and there doesn't seem to be any system to make them accountable and for them to justify their actions. the bbc put dr brearey�*s comments to nhs england and they pointed — to their updated freedom to speak policy every trust is expected to adopt. a spokesperson said: "it is absolutely vital that everyone working in the nhs feels they can raise concerns — and that these are acted on — and we have reminded nhs leaders about the importance of this following the verdict last week." us presidentjoe biden has visited the hawaiian island of maui — and offered government support — following the deadly wildfi

dr stephen brearey was the lead consultant on the neonatal ward where she killed seven babies. correspondent dominic hughes, lots of questions being raised about the regulation of nhs managers? yes, has been a big focus in recent days, maryam, about the role of those managers at the countess of chester who are reportedly —— who have reportedly ignored the warnings from the senior doctors regarding lucy letby, we heard from the lead consultant there, dr stephen brearey, who said there is no apparent accountability for those managers, he said that when they tried to raise those concerns, the doctors felt like they were under attack, their lives were made very, very difficult. this is in fact a very difficult. this is in fact a very common complaint from whistleblower is within the nhs, when they try to raise legitimate concerns about patient safety, all too often whistleblower say their lives are made very difficult at big cost to their careers, and it is bound to be i think a big focus for the inquiry that the government has just announced. bosses at some of the uk's largest com

in early 2018, dr brearey was reviewing the baby's notes for the police.owed the baby had high levels of insulin. it had been missed by a junior doctor. it was the first sight i had of this result and it made me feel sick, actually, thinking about it. there was a baby case in front of me in which it was quite clear that this baby had been poisoned by insulin. and the nursing record supported the fact that lucy letby was present, on shift at the time. the body produces insulin naturally. when it does, it also produces a substance called c—peptide. most medical experts agree, if there's hardly any c—peptide, then the insulin cannot be natural. if you measure very high levels of insulin with very low levels of c—peptide, then it can only be the case that the insulin was not made by the body, so that would be objective evidence that there has been, that somehow insulin has been administered to this baby. it wasn't produced by the baby. and it can't have - happened accidentally? no, this would not happen accidentally. the review of patient records suggested a s

dr stephen brearey first raised concerns about lucy letby in 2015.his colleagues' lives were made very difficult. it's also emerged the nursing regulatorfor the uk is looking into claims against lucy letby�*s former boss, alison kelly. 0ur health correspondent dominic hughes reports. managers in charge of the countess of chester hospital at the time lucy letby was murdering and attempting to murder babies in her care have some tough questions to answer. doctors tried to raise the alarm over lucy letby but the lead consultant in the neonatal unit said bosses were more worried about reputational damage to the hospital. dr stephen brearey said there was no accountability for nhs managers, a view shared by the british medical association. what is unacceptable is the lack of accountability in non—clinical managers making decisions remote from patient care, affecting patient care adversely, and then when they leave one organisation, they seem to pop up at another one. so does this terrible case of lucy letby tell us something about the wider culture in the

dr stephen brearey led the team of seven consultants on the unit who shared joint concerns about letbyow speaking publicly about their experience for the first time. it's something that nobody really wants to consider, you know, that a member of staff might be harming the babies under your care. things came to a head when two out of three healthy triplets died within 2a hours of each other injune 2016. afterwards, a meeting was held for staff. lucy letby was there. she was sitting next to me. i spoke to her and said how tired and upset she must be after two days of this, and i hoped that she was going to have a restful weekend. and she turned to me and said, "no, i'm back on shift tomorrow." the other staff were very traumatised by all of this. we were crumbling before your eyes, almost, and she was quite happy and confident to come into work. lucy letby was eventually moved to a clerical role. the doctors kept trying to get managers to investigate the suspicious deaths and her connection to them. but we can now reveal that even though consultants here repeatedly made loud warnings to

in early 2018, dr brearey was reviewing the baby's notes for the police.evidence the infant had been poisoned. a blood test showed the baby had high levels of insulin. it had been missed by a junior doctor. it was the first sight i had of this result and it made me feel sick, actually, thinking about it. there was a baby case in front of me in which it was quite clear that this baby had been poisoned by insulin. and the nursing record supported the fact that lucy letby was present, on shift at the time. the body produces insulin naturally. when it does, it also produces a substance called c—peptide. most medical experts agree, if there's hardly any c—peptide, then the insulin cannot be natural. if you measure very high levels of insulin with very low levels of c—peptide, then it can only be the case that the insulin was not made by the body, so that would be objective evidence that there has been, that somehow insulin has been administered to this baby. it wasn't produced by the baby. and it can't have - happened accidentally? no, this would not happen acc

dr stephen brearey first raised concerns about lucy letby in 2015.es were made very difficult. it's also emerged the nursing regulatorfor the uk is looking into claims against lucy letby�*s former boss alison kelly. 0ur health correspondent dominic hughes reports. managers in charge of the countess of chester hospital at the time lucy letby was muddling and attempting to murder babies in her care have some tough questions to answer. doctors tried to raise the alarm over lucy letby but the lead consultant in the neonatal unit said bosses were more married about reputational damage to the hospital. —— more worried. stephen brearey said there was no accountability for nhs managers, a view shared by the british medical association. view shared by the british medical association-— view shared by the british medical association. ~ . , , , association. what is unacceptable is the lack of accountability _ association. what is unacceptable is the lack of accountability in - the lack of accountability in non—clinical managers making decisions remote from patie

dr stephen brearey said his initial concerns about the nurse were not immediately acted upon and histhe regulatory bodies that we have to answer to, and quite often we'll see senior managers who have no apparent accountability for what they do in our trusts, and they move to other trusts, and you worry about their future actions. and there doesn't seem to be any system to make them accountable and for them to justify their actions. the bbc put dr brearey�*s comments to nhs england and they pointed to their updated freedom to speak policy every trust is expected to adopt. a spokesperson said... well, it appears the government is open to the idea of nhs bosses facing tougher regulation. let's bring in our political correspondent damian grammaticus. damian, what has the government said about this idea?— about this idea? lucy, i was talking to the education _ about this idea? lucy, i was talking to the education secretary - about this idea? lucy, i was talking to the education secretary a - about this idea? lucy, i was talking to the education secretary a little l to the education secret

we will bring you this interview now with dr stephen brearey, who led the team of seven consultants onss of chester hospital, who shared concerns about the deaths, he has been speaking to judith moritz. if we go back to the summer of 2015, when did you first become concerned? a review of the care of all three babies was done, and there was nothing in common that we could pain these three deaths on. but the static analysis to identify that lucy letby was on shift for those three episodes. find lucy letby was on shift for those three episodes.— lucy letby was on shift for those three episodes. and did that worry ou? three episodes. and did that worry yon? well. — three episodes. and did that worry yon? well. i _ three episodes. and did that worry you? well, ithink— three episodes. and did that worry you? well, i think i _ three episodes. and did that worry you? well, i thinki can _ three episodes. and did that worry you? well, i thinki can remember| you? well, i thinki can remember sa inc, you? well, i thinki can remember saying. on — you? well, i thinki can remember saying. on no. _ you?

working at all these events, and as the year progressed, it was noticed time and time again, dr stephen breareys, he tried to flag this to management, and he said his concerns were ignored, that he was told it was coincidence, that there was no evidence for some of its claims. i think it was difficult for some of the consultants in this case to put it all together, because they were never working the same shift patterns as lucy letby. they were not seeing the whole picture as it went on, and really the police had to go through a painstaking process over a number of years, where letby was arrested multiple times, new evidence came to light, and it was only in 2019, after a medical expert reviewed the cases of babies f and l that they realise the babies f and l that they realise the babies had been poisoned. those cases were only investigated because they were part of a set of twins who had also been attacked. so that goes to show how difficult it has been for the crown to unpick some of these crimes. in and it also indicates as well the way that the medical evidence was so important. we have hea

dr stephen brearey led the team of seven consultants on the unit who shared joint concerns about letbyout their experience for the first time. it's something that nobody really wants to consider, that a member of staff might be harming the babies under your care. things came to a head when two out of three healthy triplets died within 2a hours of each other injune 2016. afterwards, a meeting was held for staff. lucy letby was there. she was sitting next to me. i spoke to her and said how tired and upset she must be after two days of this, and hoped that she was going to have a restful weekend, and she turned to me and said, "no, i'm back on shift tomorrow." the other staff were very traumatised by all of this. they were crumbling before your eyes almost, and she was quite happy and confident to come into work. lucy letby was eventually moved to a clerical role. the doctors kept trying to get managers to investigate the suspicious deaths, and her connection to them. but we can now reveal that even though consultants here repeatedly made loud warnings to senior management, they say they

dr stephen brearey said his initial concerns about the nurse were not immediately acted upon — and hisve the readily bodies we have to answer to. have the readily bodies we have to answerto. quite have the readily bodies we have to answer to. quite often we will see senior managers who have no apparent accountability for what they are doing in our trusts and then moved to other trusts. you know, you worry about their future actions, and there doesn't seem to be any system to make them accountable and for them to justify their actions. the them to 'ustify their actions. the bbc nut them to justify their actions. the bbc put the _ them to justify their actions. the bbc put the commons to nhs england and they pointed to the updated freedom to speak policy. a spokesperson said... it appears the government is open to the idea of nhs bosses facing tougher regulations. gillian keegan talk to us. it tougher regulations. gillian keegan talk to us. , . talk to us. it is something which should be part _ talk to us. it is something which should be part of _ talk to us. it is something which should

dr stephen brearey said his initial concerns about the nurse were not immediately acted upon — and hisay confused and anxious because that problem is being turned in a way in which you start to realise that they are seeing you as a problem. doctors and nurses will have the regulatory bodies that we all have to answer to. and quite often, we will see senior managers who have no apparent accountability for what they do in our trusts, and they are moved to other trusts. and you worry about their future actions and there doesn�*t seem to be any system to make them accountable and for them to justify their actions. let�*s bring in alison britton, professor of health care and medical law at glasgow caledonian university. thank you very much forjoining us. do you think that health managers, nhs managers should be regulated? yes, i think the first thing to really note here is that this is not a new problem, this whole concept of whistle—blowing, what it means, how it�*s accounted for, how it�*s managed, and most importantly for everyone involved, how it�*s actually resolved. it really came to

dr stephen brearey led the team of seven consultants on the unit who shared joint concerns about letbyt a member of staff might be harming the babies under your care. things came to a head when two out of three healthy triplets died within 2a hours of each other injune 2016. afterwards, a meeting was held for staff. lucy letby was there. she was sitting next to me. i spoke to her and said how tired and upset she must be after two days of this, and i hoped that she was going to have a restful weekend. and she turned to me and said, "no, i'm back on shift tomorrow." the other staff were very traumatised by all of this. we were crumbling before your eyes, almost, and she was quite happy and confident to come into work. lucy letby was eventually moved to a clerical role. the doctors kept trying to get managers to investigate the suspicious deaths and her connection to them. but we can now reveal that even though consultants here repeatedly made loud warnings to senior management, they say they were ignored and ultimately told that if they didn't stop raising questions about the nurse, ther

dr stephen brearey led the team of seven consultants on the neonatal unit at the countess of chesterr of 2015, when did you first become concerned? a review of the care of all three babies was done, and there was nothing in common that we could pin these three deaths on. but the staffing analysis did identify that lucy letby was on shift for those three episodes. and did that worry you? well, i think i can remember saying, oh no, it can't be lucy, nice lucy. tell me about when you remember first meeting lucy letby. i don't recall the first time that i met lucy letby. she started work in 2012. she didn't strike me as too different to most nurses on the unit. you didn't have any worries about her doing thejob? i don't think anybody did. it's something that nobody really wants to consider, you know, that a member of staff might be harming the babies under your care. can you give us a sense of what was happening in the unit over the summer and autumn of 2015 in terms of there being more unexplained collapses and deaths? it was the first time i started to have some concerns about the unus

stephen brearey, and dr. ravi jairam are both great britons. they took a huge risk. management, the former senior management, the former senior management of the countess of chester hospital who cared more about guarding their own reputation and guarding the seven premature babies who died. >> lord bailey, your nominee . >> lord bailey, your nominee. >> lord bailey, your nominee. >> my union, jack, is sadiq khan . yet again, with only a week to go to implementation of the ulez. a that he tried to ulez. it's a that he tried to silence scientists who said his science was incorrect and it will not make any difference to the health in outer london. this has got to stop . poor policy. has got to stop. poor policy. stop it, sadiq. yeah and i obviously spoke about this extraordinarily key moment on the labour broadcasting company earlier in the show. >> watch. >> watch. >> i didn't expect this would be weaponised by others who you and ihave weaponised by others who you and i have exchanged with who didn't believe covid was real, believed in conspiracy theorist. and so forth

stephen brearey, and dr. ravi jairam are both great britons. they took a huge risk. management, the former senior management, the former senior management of the countess of chester hospital who cared more about guarding their own reputation and guarding the seven premature babies who died. >> lord bailey, your nominee . >> lord bailey, your nominee. >> lord bailey, your nominee. >> my union, jack, is sadiq khan . yet again, with only a week to go to implementation of the ulez. a that he tried to ulez. it's a that he tried to silence scientists who said his science was incorrect and it will not make any difference to the health in outer london. this has got to stop . poor policy. has got to stop. poor policy. stop it, sadiq. yeah and i obviously spoke about this extraordinarily key moment on the labour broadcasting company earlier in the show. >> watch. >> watch. >> i didn't expect this would be weaponised by others who you and ihave weaponised by others who you and i have exchanged with who didn't believe covid was real, believed in conspiracy theorist. and so forth

stephen brearey, who you mentioned there.l victim of lucy letby was killed in 2016, he called up the duty executive in urgent care and told her he didn't want lucy letby to return to the wall. the following day . she responded by following day. she responded by saying that that wouldn't be possible because there was no evidence. now today dermot o'leary has said doctors and nurses all have the regulatory bodies that we have to answer to and quite often we'll see senior managers who have no apparent accountable ability for what they do in our trusts. and then move to other trusts. now now, after these revelations from the lucy letby trial associate nafions lucy letby trial associate nations such as the hospital consultants and specialists association have called for a reform of the disciplinary system which would ensure staff who speak out in the future don't face any kind of retribution . retribution. >> on the other side to this, sophie is also . so the calls for sophie is also. so the calls for the a statutory inquiry that w