is brian butler describes the reality inside mar-a-lago you know, the property really well. and one thing that we wrote about in the indictment that the prosecutor said was that essentially there were thousands of guests that had come through mar-a-lago in the period that the documents were there, where they're kept in all kinds of public places. i mean, how secure would you say mar is >> well, i mean, there's been some very public instances of people sneaking on property look i think it's secure, but there were definitely a lot of gaps where people could get in very easily >> didn't who had access to the rooms where the documents were kept? >> i i don't know if a master key, but i mean, like i couldn't win and got a master key to all the rooms for check-ins. i ever saw all the check-ins with the valets, all of that so i mean, these oblique at night anybody could who made the call where these boxes were kept? >> the piezo in the pine hall was always guarded you didn't have to worry about any security breaches for pine hall, but definitely the lake room, which is pretty much

exclusive interview tonight, the former mar-a-lago employee who worked there for two decades, brian butler told me what he says are other secrets that he believes former president trump, that he overheard for president trump was discussing with pratt >> were there ever any instances when >> you were still working there that you witness for trump was in your view, carelessly throwing around national security information >> you know that it's really, you know stood out to me, but i believe it was april of 2021 there was a member, anthony pratt, who he was coming. he he flew in the night before. >> he's an australian billionaire he finishes his meeting with the former president, gets in the car and his cheapest half says, how did the meeting go? pratt without saying just says he told me and it would be us military classified information of what he told them about russian submarines and us submarines and that's really all i remember hearing and i went what i'm thinking this i'm in the car. i'm like that. i just hear that. so it wasn't like oh, the meeting went well, we talked about it was he w

and why is he speaking out now >> well, if this is brian butler, brian butler worked for donald trump for 20 years at the mar-a-lago club at one point, running the car service for all of the gases that's coming in and out of the club. he eventually left that job in fall of 2022, but that was not before he had been privy to some major conversations and moments in this classified documents investigation. and now he is someone who has spoken to prosecutors multiple times and clearly is a key witness. for the indictment. one of those moments he recalls, wolf is june 3 of 2022 when he was working at the club and the bodyman of donald trump, walt nauta, asked him oddly in his estimation, to borrow an escalator, a cadillac escalades so that it could be used on the very same day that the justice since department fbi agents were coming to mar-a-lago to collect documents classified records that might be there that day. they did not get all of them. and brian butler and walt nauta then helped get all of the trump family's luggage over to the airport to go out of town for the summer. that's not a

now, let me catch everybody up for a second on who this brian butler is. he's already given testimony to federal investigators and tonight, he told kaitlan collins that back in june of 2022, so he helped trump's body man, walt nauta, deliver boxes of classified information from mar-a-lago to trump's plane. now, apparently, he had no idea what was inside of these boxes. i mean, totally oblivious according dam but wait, because there's more because apparently he wasn't just moving the boxes. is the timing of it. he was moving these boxes on the very same day that trump and his attorney were meeting with the doj at mar-a-lago about what? the classified documents you noticed that he had thought they were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember loading. >> and did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially us national security secrets in those box and no clue. >> no. i had no clue. i mean, we were just taking them out of the escalate, piling them up. i remember they were all stacked on top of each oth

man speaking is brian butler. employee who quit three months after the i searched the property. butler testified to special jack smith team and is in the indictment as trump employee five. nbc news has not independently confirmed mr. butler's role, the fact he has come for now is telling. any day now the judge in the case may release the identities of unnamed witnesses like witness number 5. it puts at least a dozen others like mr. butler at risk. judge cannon has yet to rule on whether she will release the names of the prosecution. she held a hearing 11 days ago, the trial date is still very much tbd. joining me now is msnbc lisa rubin. it's always so wonderful to have you on set. continued confusion about what's happening in florida. and other legal scholars, what is canon going to do here? this seems like a very bad call, witnesses should be protected. especially those the president has a history of aligning if not outright harassing pictures i was reading the transcript you are referring to earlier tonight and

the man speaking there is brian butler, former longtime mar-a- lago employee who quit three months afterhe fbi searched the property. butler testified to special counsel jack smith's team and is listed as trump employee number five. while nbc news has not independently confirmed mr. butler's role here, the fact that he has come forward now is telling. any day now, the judge in this case, eileen cannon, may release the identities of unnamed potential witnesses, like witness number five, which puts at least a dozen others like mr. butler at risk. judge cannon has yet to rule on whether she will release the names of those witnesses for the prosecution. she held a hearing 11 days ago on the matter. as far as that trial date, that is still very much tbd. joining me now to discuss all of this is msn legal, leslie ansley. to explain the continued confusion about exactly what is happening. >> right. first of all. >> and other legal scholars. >> yes. >> what is cannon going to do here? this seems like a very bad call on its face, especially for those that, the president has a history of maligning

now, brian butler, who is known and reference six times as trump employee number five in the superseding indictment was asked to help walt nauta, who is trump's body man, turned co-defendant, load those documents onto the plane. here's what he told us about that moment and then what happened is walt left before me and he never goes directly to the plane. he's either in the motorcade when he goes there with the boss, which the former president. and i remember telling him he left the club with i didn't know what he had in his vehicle, but he waited for me nearby business. and i told him i would tell him when i was leaving mar-a-lago. so i left mar-a-lago. i texted him, hey, i'm on my way. >> he followed me. >> he pulled out and got behind me. we got to the airport. i ended up loading all the luggage i had and he had a bunch of foxx's. you >> noticed that he had thought they were the >> boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember loading. >> and did you have any time any idea at the time that there was potentially us national security secrets in his bo

brian butler, of course, did not use an attorney that could be provided from the trump world. he has his own attorney that he retained separately. >> sara. he also made clear that this is not a witch hunt in his view. from all that he knows, this will be really interesting and a great get. thank you so much, katelyn polantz appreciate your reporting, kate. >> so house republicans are now accusing the january 6th congressional committee of withholding witness transcripts, witnesses that republicans say undercut cassidy hutchinson's testimony about donald trump's actions on the day of the insurrection. some of those transcripts include testimony from the driver of trump's suv on january 6th, and also some trump white house officials ever since the trump white house aide turned whistleblowers testimony in 2022, republicans have tried to question her credibility. this new report says this in part none of the white house employees corroborated hutchinson's sensational story about president trump lunging for the steering wheel of the beast. she was recounting what she heard from som

documents case. >> extraordinary firsthand look. >> brian butler's name could become a matter of publicord sooner than we think. >> this type of witness is gold for prosecutors. >> butler is an insider's insider. he first visited there over 20 years ago and had close relationships with the former president and the former president's co-defendant, a property manager named carlos. now mr. butler is revealed, which is new. he spoke to federal prosecutors. he has the testimony that jack smith and his investigators think is relevant to prosecuting and possibly incarcerating former president trump, and brian butler is our special guest appearing on msnbc for the first time tonight. thank you for being here. >> thank you, ari. >> appreciate it. you know a lot of things that people are interested in. let's start with you. why are you choosing to come forward and speak out now? >> so, you know, it weighed on me. it was march 8th, i believe, of 2023 when investigators first came to talk to me. i was not home. i was out with carlos at the time, and, you know, it's been up and down since then. so i

why is he also known as brian butler? why is he coming forward now? >> what, butler says now that the reason he wants to speak publicly is because he wants people to know the facts. and this is a person who has sat down with process heaters multiple times, who is very likely to be a witness at the trial of donald trump and his two co-defendants. when it is coming up. we don't have a date yet, just yet, but he's very likely to have to speak about that and he's saying now that in his experience here, he's putting the puzzle pieces together. he's realizing this is not a witch hunt of donald trump, and that he had overheard thing he had seen things in this alleged cover-up that donald trump and others were taking part in to keep the classified documents out of the hands? so the federal government that he believes it's enough for him to come forward. and also jake, this is something that has been personally difficult for him. he spoke at length about that with kaitlan collins, his best friend for 20 years, carlos de oliviera, whom he worked with at mar-a-la

meet brian butler. he's also known as employee number five in the criminal indictment from special counsel jack smith. butler is not a random person who trump can suddenly claim. he doesn't know he knows trump and it has known him for 21 years since he took a job as a seasonal valet at mar-a-lago. he has years of pictures and messages with everyone important in the trump orbit. he worked for he worked hundreds of p.stance feet away from carlos de oliviera, the other mar-a-lago employee? he was indicted alongside trump, and they took lightly walks together. they were friends, but their paths now look very different. they oliviera is alleged to have lied to investigators. meanwhile, butler has cooperated and he is helping prosecutors to fill in these gaps. about how trump and his coconspirators mishandled classified materials and how trump it is. employees lied to federal investigators about those documents, about how trump sought out loyalty from all of his people butler corroborates two important episod

and as brian butler noted trump was still there, which was a bit unusual. he typically would leave to go to new jersey to his club earlier than that, but he was still there that day. and what brian remember seeing is trump's attorney evan corcoran. he's very tall, he's got the silver hair. he remember seeing that he didn't know who the other people were in or sin, but he now realizes they were fbi agents and they were there on june 3. we do know that because that was when they handed over those 30 or so classified documents handed over a form that said i attest that this was a diligent search and the best of our ability, everything that was here, of course, that was not true. anderson and the attorney they say didn't know that at the time, but that was months before the fbi showed up and found hundreds of classified documents still there, but it's a key part of this because it was that day before when trump's attorney attorney went into that storage room to look that walt nauta, who is now a co-defendant here and carlos de oliveira had moved documents into

his name is brian butler, a long time chauffeur to trump's family? now, butler spent about 20 years working for trump and he claims it was on june 3, 2022, when trump's personal aide, walt nauta, the name may be familiar, asked him if he could borrow butler's suv to move luggage from mar-a-lago to the former president's personal plane. now that date is the same date that trump's attorneys met with the fbi, touring a basement storage room to look for documents. it's the same day they signed a document saying they hunted for additional papers and found few butler telling kaitlan collins that the luggage he moved included the white bankers boxes in jack smith's indictment >> they were the boxes that were in the indictment. the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember loading and did you have any time any idea at the time that there was potentially us national security secrets in those boxes? >> no clue no. i had no clue. i mean, we were just taking them out of the escalate, piling them up. i remember they were all stacked on top of each other and the

brian butler is here speaking publicly and not using notably, an attorney within the trump legal universe, erin. >> all right. kaitlan. thank you very much. and i want to go now to ryan goodman, our legal analyst, stephanie grisham, the former trump white house press secretary and david axelrod. of course, the former senior adviser to president obama so ryan butler, a 20 year employee of the trump's, right, who knows the habits, knows the proclivities knows what moves when coming out and talking about all these boxes, how important is the information? russian that he is providing in this case seems to be incredibly important. he is a direct witness and participant in a large part of the activities that are indicted. and so he's there when they're talking about information that would be about deleting the video footage that to hide it from the fbi. and the grand jury as alleged in the indictment he's there when they are loading trump's plane with the boxes before the fbi arrives at mar-a-lago, same day you find and to collect the documents that's huge. and he has no ax to grind. he seems h

cnn is now reporting that his name is brian butler. he was a long-time employee at mar-a-lago, and he witnessed some incredibly damning things like the day that trump flew from florida to bedminster, new jersey. trump's body man and his codefendant, walt nauta, asked mr. butler to get nauta a big suv, an escalade. butler then saw nauta and trump's codefendant, carlos deolive yra load them up and load those boxes onto the plane. mr. butler said that all took place on june 3, 2022. later that same day one of trump's lawyers provided investigators with what he said was the entirety of classified documents that remain o in mr. trump's possession as well as a sworn certification that falsely claimed on trump's behalf that he and team trump had conducted a diligent search of boxes and all responsive documents had been turned over. what brian butler is now asserting here is pretty explosive. not only did trump apparently hideaway at least 105 classified documents the fbi eventually found, it sure sounds like trump managed to steal another 10

figure in the case. >> an extraordinary firsthand look. >> brian butler's name could be a matter ofrd sooner than we expect. >> a gold witness. is an insider. longtime employee. he first visited over 20 years ago and had close relationships with the former president and the codefendant and property manager. mr. butler is revealed, which is new. he spoke to federal prosecutors and has the testimony that jack smith and investigators think is relevant to prosecuting and possibly incarcerating former president trump. he is our special guest for the first time tonight. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> you know a lot of things that people are interested in. let's start with you. why are you choosing to come forward and speak out now? >> it weighed on me. it was march 8 of 2023 when investigators first came to talk to me. i was not home. i was out with carlos at the time. it has been up and down since then. i did not plan on speaking out publicly. then, about three or four weeks ago i was reading the news and reading the court filings and they were going to release the witness li

i think it is very important for brian butler and other witnesses to come forward publicly to explain what they know and what their role is. we are going to need to have ryan butlers and former truck cabinet secretaries and former trump intelligence officials and former trump national security officials. everybody will need to come out and publicly explain why donald trump is such a risk to our democracy, to our national security and to our global security and by him doing this it takes a tremendous amount of courage because he will get a serious amount of vitriol threats most likely, otherwise he is a private citizen and has not signed up for this so this is a very old and admirable courageous move by mr. butler. >> this is quite a newsweek as we all know. i was curious your take on what the democratic strategy should be there? it's clear from reporting that republicans want to bring up the age issue again. what do you think the democrats should do here? >> well, look i am concerned that he resigned the day before and that he has been prepping apparently was trump orbit people. he wa

he hasn't said anything about brian butler. i don't know if it's visit his release conditions that he's not supposed to talk about the witnesses here. >> i think that a lot of it is about not talking about witnesses in a particular federal case because there has been so much much concern from the government about witness intimidation in that case in the e jean carroll case he did go many, many weeks without doing it when he started doing it again, it was right after he posted that bond and i don't think those two are unrelated. now, you could make the argument. he's posted the bond is over. he's certainly not helping himself with his appeal by doing that well, you would think he would learn his lesson on that since it's costing him >> i think some of these lessons like filing lawsuits that he ends up paying the other side's legal fees for. he has to learn several times >> magazines. >> as always great to have you. here's a big question for a lot of people who maybe on their phones right now is tiktok about to be banned in the u

with brian butler doing this, it takes a tremendous amount of courage, because he will get a seriousely. that many of us get. but he is otherwise a private citizen and has not signed up for this, so this is a very bold and admirable, courageous move by mr. butler. >> this is quite a newsweek i think as we all know. he is testifying tomorrow. i was curious what your take on what the democratic strategy should be there. it's clear that republicans want to bring up the age issue. they asked why biden was not also treated the same way in their view as trump. ludicrous. what do you think the democrats should do here? >> locke, i am concerned that he resigned the day before, that he has been prepping apparently with trump orbit people. he was appointed by donald trump. the reason i am concerned by that is that if he were still an employee at the department of justice, he would be obligated to adhere to the rules, regulations and restrictions placed upon him by the department of justice. as a private citizen, he does not have these same obligations. it is strange that he would resign the ni

time he said we're all dirty, we all move boxes that is just one of the explosive things that brian butler told me about what one of trump's codefendants told him. >> he worked for donald trump for two decades since he was just 19 years old. now at age 41 with his identity revealed, comes that incredible story. you're about. that's a here butler's take on how he says he unwittingly participated in the moving of boxes, which contains some of america's most delicate national secrets also, what he says he witnessed the possible obstruction of a federal investigation you are trump employee number five. you're a central witness in the classified documents investigation why are you speaking out publicly with your story now? >> well, i mean, it's it's been almost a year since fbi agents showed up at my house when my wife has at home and, you know, over the course of the last year, the emotionally it's been a roller coaster sure a couple of weeks ago with judge cannon says she's going to release the names of the witnesses you go from highs and lows in this and instead of just waiting for it to jus

let's start with the last part of that, which is brian butler saying explicitly i helped walt walt nauta at mar-a-lago. how does mr. butler play into all of this? >> it's interesting because mr. butler shows up in the indictment with six different references across two paragraphs. none of those paragraphs relate to the incident that we were just watching as he described to cnn. nothing about the indictment details how boxes got from mar-a-lago to bedminster, makes a passing reference to it, but the story he told to cnn is not currently part of what donald trump has been charged with, what what walt has been charged with. >> why did he want to go public and tell the details he got into his relationship with donald trump about how he doesn't trust donald trump, thinks he is a bad guy, et cetera, et cetera. what's he up to here? >> he worked there 20 years. on one hand, interesting to say that he doesn't trust trump now. on the other hand, i think part of his motivation is that that he may believe his name is about to be disclosed. recall that judge cannon ordered the unsealing of certain d

he's now known as brian butler. he worked at mar-a-lago for a long time and we talked about the pressure that he faced to stay inside the trump fold. this is what he told us i mean, i think the american people have the right to know the facts that this is not a witch hunt. i mean, he can go on and tv and say this. that's one of the reasons for doing this and quote, the pra says this and that i it's all bogus but people believe him >> you think it's a fair investigation? >> absolutely >> how much of a difference do you think it would make if people could hear from the brian butler is the other witnesses every day leading up to the election. >> well, we're going to find out because in a number of filings over the last last week or so, the special counsel team has turned over to the defense and in discovery, the names, the identities of witnesses, their actual testimony from the grand jury. so they are fighting right now in court, as we know to keep that information under seal and not share it with the public, but we'l

you to listen to what someone who is only previously known as trump employee five, now known as brian butler, told me and our exclusive interview on monday on that day, as you're loading, helping load these these boxes unwittingly into the plane and handing them to the pilots. trump is back at mar-lago. and did you know that his attorneys were there that day? >> it's it's funny because i remember seeing this taller guy think, flick back silver hair. i think it was netanyahu. i now know to be evan corcoran. and i saw a bunch of other people in the living room. >> i had no clue. i'm just seeing all these people that was evan corcoran, trump's attorney, and members of the fbi, jbrowse, which i come to realize now, at the same time, he's going in there. the boxes are going from somewhere into a vehicle, which are eventually going to the plane which i load with walt okay. so jim, if trump thought he was allowed to keep these documents as his attorneys argued today. and as you have argued before, why was he having them moved out while the fbi is there at mar-lago to collect said documents. >> all

this is what brian butler told me did the two of you ever talk about moving boxes are looking back on that? >> yeah. i mean, there was one time >> towards one of the last times i was with them and we're talking about boxes and, while biden did the same thing, you can't get, it always got brought up about biden and other people that did the same thing. and then there was one time he said you know, we're all dirty, we all moved boxes i mean that was one thing we did not hear from robert hur today. they're already the witnesses in his report >> know. and i think that's a remarkable point. right? we've spent so much time today rehashing the language that he used in the report and people opining as to whether he should have made references to the memory in the way that he did those her to things what really stood out to me is this several hundred page report 174 witnesses other than the president himself and his ghostwriter. there's not any testimony in this entire report provided by a single witness who could add evidence that the president did any of this in a willful way that would have

his name is brian butler. >> it is not a witchhunt.he reasons for doing this. >> what does that mean. it is huge news. is it also a problem? i know the team will attack the sky every day, yesterday and tomorrow. >> that is the last thing he wants. he has a strong stance against obtaining juries. in my own mind i have questions about what his lawyer was thinking. they could prove almost everything he talked about without him. and assisting in the obstruction activities. >> you said that if donald trump doesn't win, he is going to jail. you are confident these are actually going to happen? >> i am confident they will happen at some point. if he is not the president elect, before they go to trial. >> we learned recently that two associates was going back to jail and peter navarro is. given how well you know donald trump, does that scare him? to see immediately disassociate himself with them. >> i think he is a different person than peter navarro. i think he was a loyalist. he sort of let everybody out to hang. in terms of that carnage tha

adding to the mountain of evidence is brian butler, who cnn is identifying as trump employee 5 in theounsel's indictment. amongst the events and conversations butler claims to have told investigators about is how he unknowingly helped trump's co-defendant walt nauta move boxes that held classified materials, as well as overhearing australian billionaire repeat classified information after meeting with trump. >> he finishes his meeting with the former president, gets in the car. and his chief of staff says, how did the meeting go? pratt without saying just says he told me and it would be, you know, u.s. military classified information of what he told him about russian submarines and u.s. submarines. and that's really all i remember hearing, and i went, what? i'm thinking this. i'm in the car, like, did i just hear that? >> now, as a reminder, when that news broke last year about trump's alleged disclosure of classified information to the australian billionaire, trump denied it, calling it fake news that he shared such information with the, quote, red-haired weirdo from australia. and a

his name is brian butler, employee number 5. let's play him. this is him talking about moving the boxes which contained national security secrets. >> so i left mar-a-lago. i texted him, hey, i'm on my way. he followed me. he pulled out and got behind me. i ended up loading all the luggage i had and he had a bunch of boxes. >> you noticed he had boxes. >> yeah, they were the boxes in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember loading. >> did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially u.s. national security secrets in those boxes? >> no clue. >> one of the things. dave, that i think we should note here is one of the reasons he says that he did that interview on cnn is that judge aileen cannon allowed the release of information about who the witnesses would be. which puts them in danger, puts them in jeopardy of death threats, whatever you get when you talk about donald trump, and so he came forward on his own. what he said is absolutely damning. he was one of the people not only moving the boxes but as neal said

now, the witness's name is brian butler -- that's right, the butler did it -- previously known in courtp employee number five." trump employee number five, by the way, also chanel's worst-selling fragrance. if butler's interview is any indication of his testimony, trump is, to use a legal term, "screwed up the wazoo." butler says he and others "moved boxes from mar-a-lago to the airport at the same time that federal investigators were visiting trump to discuss returning the classified material." that is insane! he's doing the exact crime he's beng investigated for while he's being investigated for the crime. "identity theft? officer! i would never! i swear on your mother's maiden name, which is... what again?" if that's not bad enough, in exchange for butler's loyalty, trump may have dangled the promise of legal representation as a reward. though i gotta say trump picking your lawyer is about the worst reward i can imagine. "okay, do want the one who drinks so much that he pees shiraz, the one who farts in court, or the one whose head is dripping with mystery ooze? trick question: it's

in an interview with cnn, mar-a-lago employee brian butler painting a -- painting a very specific picture of trump's inner circle, and how it operated more like a mafia family than anything else. with loyalty prized above everything. a world where fealty to the boss led to criminal exposure. now, nbc news has not independently confirmed butler's identity as trump employee number 5 and he declined nbc's request for comment. in his interview last night, butler says he helped trump's co-defendants, walt nowta and carlos move those boxes containing some of our nation's most sensitive national security secrets. watch. >> he followed me. he pulled out, got behind me, got to the airport, i ended up loading all the luggage i had and he had a bunch of boxes. >> you noticed that he had boxes. >> oh, yeah, they were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember. >> did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially u.s. national security secrets in those boxes? >> no clue. i had no clue. >> and here's how carlos talked about moving classified docume

in an interview with cnn, mar-a- lago employee brian butler painting a very specific picture of trump'safia family than anything else, with loyalty prized above everything, a world where fealty to the boss led to criminal exposure. nbc news has not independently confirmed butler's identity as employee number five and he rick declined our request for comment. he said he helped trump's co- defendants move those boxes containing those boxes containing some of our nation's most sensitive national security secrets. >> i pulled up and he had a bunch of boxes. they were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that is what i remember loading. >> did you have any idea at the time that there were potentially u.s. national security secrets in those boxes? >> i had no clue. >> no clue and here is how carlos deolivera described moving boxes for trump. >> we were moving boxes and talking about well, biden did the same thing. it always got brought up about biden another people that did the same thing and there was one time he said that we are all dirty. we all move boxes. >> bu

it's brian butler.is the guy who had to move the documents when the fbi was looking for them, to trump's plane. butler sat down for an interview with cnn. and he had a lot to share about how sloppy trump was about keeping the documents locked up. >> the lake room, which is pretty much above -- almost above pine hall, i mean, anybody could just go around the spiral staircase, turn left, and there it is. >> anybody could access that room? >> well, i'm sure you needed a key. but yeah. i mean, there were multiple ways to get to the lake room. >> how many people had a key, would you guess? >> i'm assuming they didn't change -- if they had the same lock -- oh my gosh, probably over 10 keys, 20 keys. all the managers had master keys. >> jimmy: but they're all attached to a big wooden spoon, so they're safe. [ laughter ] all the people who have been with trump for years look like the doorman at a strip club, right? [ laughter ] unfortunately the judge hearing the documents case aileen cannon is moving it along

actually want to play a clip from former trump employee, brian butler telling cnn about how he unknowingly helped trump co-defendant walt nauta, move some boxes from mar-a-lago onto trump's plane this was the same day that trump's team was meeting with the doj at mar-a-lago. let's listen i had loaded a bunch of the family luggage into a minivan and i was just going to drive it to the plane, loaded up and that's it. but during the us getting luggage, walt asked, hey, i need a minivan. sure. go ahead. >> and then he left and i was i didn't think anything of it. it was a little odd the way he asked me. i mean it's stood out now after all this but him and carlos were gone at that time i didn't know because typically he wouldn't go get a vehicle, drive himself, and get luggage >> so it was unusual for him to make that ask of you? >> it seemed odd to me so if the trump team wasn't trying to hide anything, if they believe that these were >> personal records, why take these extra steps that were unusual to employees at mar-a-lago, why not just go to the national archives and say, here's what we've

brian butler is a multi-decade employee of mar lago and said he unwittingly helped trump's codefendant move boxes of classified documents to the ex- presidents plane on the same day that trump was supposed to meet with federal prosecutors about those documents at mar lago. -- mar-a-lago. >> those were the boxes in the indictment, the white bankers boxes and that is what i remember loading. >> did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially national security secrets in those boxes? >> no clue. we were taking them out of the escalade and piling them up and i remember they were stacked on top of each other and we lifted them up. >> again, trump is meeting at mar-a-lago with the fbi about the documents they say he has as butler and he are loading said documents onto a plane. butler also recounted trump's attempt to cover up the crimes in the form of a conversation with another ally at mar-a- lago. >> i remembered him saying that walt is coming tomorrow and, cool, that is great and i said, okay. but it wasn't until the following day when we were out walking and he said by the w

now publicly describing how he helped to move materials related to the classified documents case brian butleras a mar-a-lago employee for 20 years and handled car service for the former president butler told cnn he helped trump codefendant walt nauta load several boxes onto trump's plane at the west palm beach airport on june 3rd of 2022. that was the same time the fbi was searching a storage area at mar-a-lago for classified documents. >> so, you know, we're there to assist with luggage, anything that needs to go to the plane. we got to the airport. i ended up loading all the luggage i had, and he had a bunch of boxes >> you noticed that he had boxes? >> oh, yeah, they were the boxes that were in the indictment. we were just taking them out of the escalade, piling them up i remember they were all stacked on top of each other and then we're lifting them up to the pilots. >> seth: okay, first of all, why were they lifting them up to the pilot? the only i'm i've ever seen anyone lifting anything up to the pilot is when it's a movie in a small plane in south america and they're handing over bale

when someone like brian butler identifies himself as trump employee number five and goes forward, he is undermining the special counsel's argument that the rest of the witnesses need to be protected. now, his argument was i'm doing this because i know it's coming. but nonetheless, you could see how judge cannon, if she's leaning against the government, and by all indications she is from the oral argument that she had on this motion, you can see how she might use his interview to say there's no indication that witnesses here are uncomfortable, you know, to the contrary. trump employee number five has spoken out publicly on a cable news network where he spoke for 30 minutes at length with the host about that experience. >> but it should be their choice. >> yes. >> right? butler chose to come forward. he shouldn't get to speak for or think for the other couple of dozen people. that's the thing that would really be a travesty here. again, you raise a very important point that i think needs to be really emphasized. trump and his lawyers have this information. that's the thing that due pro

. >> and brian butler offered this account of donald trump sharing classified information with an australian billionaire. >> i believe it was april of 2021. this was a member, anthony pratt, who he was coming -- he flew in the night before. >> he's an australian billionaire? >> he finishes the meeting with the president and gets in the car, and his chief of staff says how did the meeting go? pratt without saying just says he told me and it would be, you know, u.s. military classified information of what he told them about russian submarines and u.s. submarines. and that's really all i remember hearing, and i went what? you know, i'm thinking this. i'm in the car of did i just hear that? so it wasn't like oh, the meeting went well. we talked. he went straight to the point. he told me that the u.s. subs and with the russian subs, you know, something that would more than likely in my mind be classified. >> leading off our discussion tonight is dean of pennsylvania and eric swawell. both served as impeachment managers in the second impeachment trial of donald trump. congress member dean, one of

we've heard from one of the key witnesses, jack smith is credible, brian butler, take a look at whati think the former president, you know, if he thinks he did nothing wrong, he should -- he should -- he should have cooperated from the beginning. why would you need to ask questions about video footage? >> you think you observed part of a coverup? >> i -- i think it's very possible. if he really believed those were his documents, you know, why was i vouching for carlos? walt calls me and asks me, somebody just wants to make sure he's good. i think there's obviously some type of obstruction. >> your thoughts of him as a witness? >> he's a great witness because he doesn't go beyond the facts he knows. why did you tell us to move the documents out? why did you look for the videos? why did you delete the videos? why did you ask is he loyal, carlos de oliveira. and then trump while butler is still present calls carlos and says to him, i'm glad you're loyal and i'll arrange to appoint a lawyer. fast. >> damning. >> easy, damning, over. >> damning, firsthand, not hearsay. >> yeah. >> on more

and charles, on another case we're following, of course, yesterday long-time mar-a-lago employee brian butlere to msnbc's ari melber. take a listen to some of what he had to say. >> so you had the impression from the people around that trump knew the things that went down were bad or illegal, and he didn't want that on video? >> oh, absolutely. i mean, why else would you need to know the video footage, and why were they calling and asking me, hey, why didn't you tell me that this guy was on video moving boxes. >> charles, how significant is this? >> it's significant but not mind blowing. keep in mind that this individual is who was known as mar-a-lago employee number five. so this is information that the federal government has already had and planned for. i just can't figure out for the life of me why there's so much loyalty around donald trump for someone who does not necessarily seem like he repays that in any way, shape, form, or fashion. >> how do you see it, carol? >> well, i think that this is the kind of witness that every prosecutor loves to have. he's somebody who has never from the

the right to legally take any document he wanted just to reminder trump employee number five, brian butler did tell cnn this week that he remembers moving boxes with classified material as part of this alleged cover up at mar-a-lago you noticed that he had thought they were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember loading. >> and did you have any time any idea at the time that there was potentially us national security secrets in his boxing? >> no clue. no. >> i had no >> all right. let's break it all down. republican strategist sarah longwell joins us, former obama white house staffer ashley allison is here and molly ball, she is senior political correspondent for the wall street journal welcome. this >> is the kind of day i think we're going to be having a lot of these kinds of days. although i guess if donald trump has anything to say about it he's going to delay these cases long enough that we never actually see any of them really go to trial. sarah longwell, the big question that i have today is that we are firmly now in general election m

the one that has been charged in this case, kaitlan collins spoke to brian butler, who is a mar-a-lago employee, who says he believed he moved classified documents around mar-a-lago and out of mar-a-lago, listen to what he told kaitlan did the two of you ever talk about moving boxes or looking back on that? >> yeah. i >> mean, there was one time towards one of the last times i was with them and we're talking about boxes and while biden did the same thing, you know, you can't get it always have got brought up about biden and other people that did the same thing. and then there was one time we said we're all dirty, we all move boxes and i said, well, look, i didn't even know what i was moving until i was at the plane and that's when i remember moving both to be clear, butler's not talking about a conversation he had with donald trump there. he's talking about a conversation he had with another mar-a-lago employee, but in a different part of the conversation, it's something i was hoping you would all here. he says he moved boxes like the ones that we've now all seen as part of the special

brian butler also referred to in the classified documents indictment as trump employee five spoke lasthe beat" with ari melber. the 20-year mar-a-lago employee previously testified before a grand jury in the case involving trump's handling of classified documents. butler also told special counsel jack smith that on june 3rd, 2022, he was asked by trump's valet and co-defendant, walt nauta, to move the boxes, which he'd later learn were full of documents, on to trump's plane in florida. butler said he later had conversations with his friend, mar-a-lago property manager and trump co-defendant, d oliveira, about efforts to review and delete security footage. >> the way i see it, if these were his personal documents, or he's allowed to have these by the pra, why would you have questions about video footage? why would you possibly move the documents when they're coming to retreat them? to me, it doesn't make any sense. on top of that, why would you put two lower-level employees in the position you are in if you did nothing wrong and these are your personal documents? >> so you had the impre

andrew, one more clip from ari's interview with brian butler.re bad or illegal and he didn't want that on video. >> oh, absolutely. i mean, why else would you needed to know the video footage and then why were they calling and asking me hey, why didn't you tell me this guy was on video moving boxes. >> andrew, you always say in assessing criminality, it's helpful to observe the way a person was acting at the time. as butler lays out, it seems, seems that trump knew that what he was doing was wrong. how would a prosecutor present a that to a jury? >> well, this is the old adage, the cover up is worse than the crime. but here, that sort of consciousness of guilt if you want to get rid of the videotape. this is not rocket science. first of all, he had the documents there and he wasn't giving them back and he gaifr them, the parts he gave back was in drips and drabs and he was lying to his lawyers then engaged in allegedly two forms of obstruction of justice. one of which relates to the clip you played, trying to get rid of the videotape that could

show you some of what brian butler employer nubble five had to say about the criminal conspiracy to high classified state secrets and then obstructing the investigation to get those documents back. >> i remember him saying by the way walt's coming tomorrow. cool. great. like, okay. it wasn't until the following day when we're out walking. hey, by the way, it's a secret. don't tell anybody walt's coming, and -- well, why? well, he needs me to find something out before he gets here. oh. what's that? he needs me to, you know, how long the camera footage is saved at mar-a-lago. i'm like, well, that's odd. why do you need the camera footage? why do you need to know how long it's saved? response, i think they're looking for somebody that was there. >> extraordinary pete struck and also details an amazing scene. the way he tells it, it's almost out of a screenplay where he and walt are both taking things to the jet to go to bedminster in new jersey. brian is taking luggage. i'm sure a lot of hair products in them, but walt's taking classified state secrets. why isn't there a new jersey prosecut

>> it was just last week brian butler otherwise known as employee number 5 broke his silence. let me play for you and our audience about what he had to say about judge cannon and his decision to come forward. >> why are you speaking out publicly with your story now? >> well, i mean it's been almost a year since fbi agents showed up at my house when my wife was at home and, you know, over the course of the last year, emotionally it's been a roller coaster. you know, a couple weeks ago judge cannon said she's going to release the names of the witnesses. you know, you go from highs and lows in this. and instead of just waiting for it to just come out, i think it's better that i get to at least say what happened than it coming out in the news, people calling anyone crazy. i'd rather just get it out there. >> not necessarily a good look from the judge. what we've seen from judge cannon so far, does any of this surprise you? and can we chalk this up to naivety. when she was assigned this case she'd only handled i believe four criminal cases that went to trial? or is judge cannon cra