here in its aftermath, bruce fiennes. very good to have you with us. we'll start with listening to dick cheney. >> for 13 years we have avoided another mass attack against the united states. we did capture bin-laden and an awful lot of senior men, i would do it again. >> he is saying that the ends justify the means. >> there are two reactions. there is no justification for committing torture and crimes. the fact is that there are certain prohibitions that we undertake because of who we are as a people. the torture convention that we ratified in an athletey and criminal law makes no exceptions, no ticking time bomb exceptions whatsoever with regard to torture. same with enslavery. even if we enslaved some of the al-qaeda people and we thought it would deter others from joining, that still does not make it legal. it would be criminal. mr. cheney seems to think that the reason why we've not had another terrorist attack here is because we flouted the law. there is no reason to believe that that is true. our constitution is not a suicide pact. there are amp