. >> some people have remembered the tapes having a major impact on burt jenner. on his thinking. >> yeah, i think that incident with my recollection. jenner also, look. bert jenner, he was the way i remember him, a wonderful man, a wonderful guy, a prominent and well known lawyer. created a great firm, jenner and block. he wanted to do the right thing. he wasn't out to get the president as some republicans accused him of and pushed him aside. he was out to do sort of an independent fair investigation. and wherever the facts lead the facts lead. that's the way i felt and i think that's the way daal felt also. but he did feel like that. once we got the tapes, talked to some of the people yeah, we did conclude that impeachment wasn't appropriate. it took a while and for jenna to get there too. and i think the tapes had a big influence on all of us. that's why the irony is if the tapes wouldn't have been there, who knows what would have happened. >> when you put together the subpoenas were you hopeful or optimistic or just felt you had to do it but you didn't think th

jenner from chicago. i can't remember his first name. >> burt. >> burt. >> did the congressman rodino interview jenner for the job? >> i don't remember. i nope he was on the list, because i remember talking to him one night saying this is a great choice. again, he met the criteria from rodino's point. he thought he was honorable. he thought he was not partisan. he was republican. you know, strong republican roots, but out of chicago, but -- and he thought he had the intellectual heft. so he was very pleased with that choice when they picked -- so that was done. then a lot of politicking, because this is a political process. take place in picking the staff. because the counter -- to satisfy the more liberal members of the committee, they wanted their person on the staff. who came in the name of cates. >> dick cates? >> yeah. dick cates from wisconsin. i believe he was -- and -- that was challenges because that wasn't john doar's selection, because he didn't meet -- but politics play as very important role here and so he was chosen as a very high ranking, could be deputy counsel at the time, but -- and then