and the i, c. j has accepted a motion by the un general assembly on the legality of israel's occupation of the palestinian territories. now, nicaragua, his case could have consequences for governments around the world can countries that are not committing atrocities directly, still be held responsible for them. alexander buyers out a 0 for inside story. the. let's dig deeper into the significance of this case and won't have any difference it'll make with all guests today from wiesbaden and germany. we joined by mateus goldman senior research fellow of the max planck institute for compared to public law, an international law in haifa, deanna bhutto, published and you know, an advocate of the policy and cause and in new york. kenneth ross is a visiting professor at the princeton school of public and international affairs. he was the executive director of human rights watch. thank you for joining a me overview. we have an admin panel of lawyers today. i'm not a lawyer can vote. so let's start in layman'

the world has to make sure that the outcome of the i, c. j is adopted and respected. we can go on like this. i watched to a session of the united nations with the representatives of as well to offer a resolution of, of, of the house. and i thought the word would be up in arms about something, something like that. uh i, i served as a minnesota international relations and i was in the u. n. and you know, it's a place we respect, you know, mostly because ultimately that's what we created for that it had been added to that, that should not be any, was it, you know, beyond what we've gone through in the 2nd world war. but watching that particular episode made me want to do we have an equal rights at the united nations? do we have the people who can equity opportunity and not allow to we took a decision that we would take the meta to the i c j. but before would take of the match it to the eyes you do. we also had taken a number of steps to try and see that we can normalize it. go to normalize the situation con, have these deaths going on these of people. these are children

so that was a, a crucial part of the i c j case against german 8. so let's just have a listen to what the defense argument was when it said that the weapons that germany sent as well, but not least. so if we look at what has actually been license for export to israel under this framework. since october 2023, we see no artillery shells, no munitions. nearly all experts, the exports involved, what is known as of the military equipment. typically, all the subordinate or defensive nature. as a matter of fact, only for weapons, war weapons have been licensed for exports since october 20, 233 of which concern test or practice equipment. so let's bring you into the discussion at this point because you have contributed to a lengthy report on germany's weapons export to israel. so do you agree with the core of this defense that germany made yesterday and quote to absolutely not see, it is unfortunately very disingenuous and it is defense by an instrument and the court to claim that to and the vast majority of weapons and we're not weapons of war, but this is

so that to go was able to present that case beautifully and the i c j. so if, if you get a present of supply arms to a state like a israel that's committing as of genocide, certainly those who claim to be in a state of war, certainly those items that you are supplying will definitely be used in committing those acts of genocide so this is suddenly germany out to germany all to know that out to be aware of that. so this is obvious, these, these weapons won't be use of boy anything else, but to engage in these acts off apparently these x on of genocide against the british thing. you people, i don't believe that the german government, like a wisdom governments that are supposed to use well, i'll police pretty aware of this as the bottom on the evidence stuff in nicaragua inside has presented up the hearings in your view. is there solid growing behind their accusations? or is it perhaps more about bringing the issue front on center? i'm in fact just talking about it is going to be a women itself. of the no, i think as far as evidence eh, they did the juvenil

c. j, quite serious, but when it comes to to the details, i do argue as well that's most of what's being brought up. but i would rather say is probably based on, on the misunderstanding and that this does not really hold of the accusations. and i think the, the, the, the presentation by our we government yesterday, yesterday in the court made clear that we are taking all responsibility in terms of humanitarian assistance. very serious. um, but also our, um, well well, when it comes to to how we control um exports, etc. that this is very well controlled. um, but still of course you need to take it serious. it is off the roll. a pace in front of the i. c. j um, but i am pretty much uh sure that's uh there there is a clear path where it is going to go. if i could just figure this out a little bit today as well, what exactly was misunderstood? i think mainly when it comes to, to human cherry and aids and the uh, which is often perceived. and our reaction to, to the facts or the, these varietie

c, j. let's turn to other world news and can yes, president william brutal will hold a special emergency cabinet meeting on tuesday. as heavy rains continue to lash the country. the government says the death toll from a months of flooding has reached at least $169.00. thousands of people are disgraced and many others are missing. in the east of kenny, a ravine class seemed to the town of river, causing it to burst its banks. mountain. web reports from the my fingers it takes hours of searching the lease to muddy, torn to find each body on. those are covered at the latest victims in flooding that's killed thousands of people here in kenya, and hundreds across east africa. it was too much for this woman when she discovered a cousin was one of them on sunday. people were trying to get to and from the town of teresa by boat ton of rivers busted banks nearby and said much the main road the stage didn't make it. several people are still missing. more than 20 have been rescued a live. they were ta

the i c j gave its ruling overwhelmingly, and we expected that it would be a, you know, handed down and taken seriously by everybody in the united nation. it's not just about cost, it's not just about what is happening and to the palestinian people. it's an international problem. you cannot have one country completely overlooking the basic laws and regulations, and that's actually abide by as the united nations. what does the united nations doing? what is it doing? that's a big question. that's really a big question. i must say. now, as it is now, western states promoting a module of democracy which they see us maybe universal, you know, to be or pre to then adopt the bible or countries. mm hm. do you think that that is a module dash, every country should adopt one form of democracy? well, i didn't know how the u. n gets to a model of the country and what they, what they would tell them democracy we have is of the can people being very clear that we want this particular model of democracy, that the, that resonates with our culture. however, the that would be searching for them because a

the timing of the i c j. case was interesting. the day before the hearings began was the 30th anniversary of the wanton genocide in which more than 800000 people from the tipsy ethnic group were killed in a treat. the german foreign ministry said the faith of the tutsis is a constant reminder for us to never again look a we, one day later, germany was being accused at the was highest court of doing fall worse than that. thanks me. the ukraine is now into the 3rd year of its more with russia and the printing and journalists are feeling the pressure. investigative reporters whose work is critical of either the authorities or military leaders are getting smeared online. masked men have come knocking on their door. the authorities in care of, we're fine with the investigative news outlet, the who's dot info when it was exposing russian war crimes. but reviewing cases of corruption in ukraine has resulted in journalists, they're being placed under soviet style surveillance by the security services. we contacted president, florida minut

we'll see how we just heard of there, the head of the german delegation at the i c j. basically saying, these accusations are for israel to respond to and not for us was that they're only response to nicaragua. the challenge. i know it clearly wasn't there, but also going a bit into the effects into what nicaragua is claiming. and you correct are saying that germany is helping of facilitating an alleged genocide file to sending military assistance to israel and business one point where jeremy and he said that the fact that history a that you can progress has been giving them are indeed mission representation. and they have been going into detail, they're saying that the rep and deliveries that they have been sending to you as well. since october 7th, we have to 98 percent so called either military equipment and not war veterans. they're making a distinction there and run it came to the wall gap and several to say that a part of these that are considered to be wall that and spell it your own to used for testing. so they have never been used, according to germany, in the

the case before the i c, j could take years to conclude. in the meantime, few in germany believe it will change much on the ground and goes a lot to unpack here, let's bring in our corresponded lucy, a shoulder, an at the international court of justice in the hague. we'll see you. why is nicaragua taking germany to the i. c j's or me is not the only countries applying the military equipments to israel, nor was it the only one who was suspended funding for unreal. this this is too, um and there might be political reasons for any colorado to have chosen germany who is known to be a sounds ally off each trail. but there might also be legal reasons because it is not that easy to bring a court against another state to the international court of justice, which is right behind me. because this court needs to have jurisdiction in germany on like all the lice, like the united states. hex at have said that this international court of justice has compulsory jurisdiction. that means that, of course, that another state that also accepted this, it's comp

tell us that up with our correspondence garcia, schultz and she's at the i c j in the hey, colonel or chief political it is. let me say look, you've not joins us from a valid let's see. a lots, nicaragua is arguments. yeah. what do they want the quote to do. of the sony, colorado today was making hits. you mentioned the hearings and they basically wants to court at this stage of the proceedings to ground so called provisioning measures . and let me cut roger's asking for, is that germany would stop all military assistance to israel and also that it would start funding again. right? these are the main things that you correct the ones here. it's been saying that germany is violating the genocide convention, visitors facilitating ed to an alleged a breach or to an electric genocide. it is important to note that such a genocide has not yet been ruled upon by the court of trespass behind me. it is another case which is pending here, which says every car brought against each trail where this question has to be answered. there has been a 1st judgment in this case. in this 1st judgment, the c

c. j is separate but related a claims, gemini, is facilitating and is ready, genocide against palestinians. a judge, the gym, and government rejects. doesn't have to be that you have any has not violated the genocide convention or international humanitarian law. we will set this out before the international court of justice. but nichol ranking this is jim and these decision to be found, the un palestinian refugee agency. i'm ross is costing lights. germany and other donors suspended funding after allegation. some i'm right employees took part in the october the 7th attacks by a mass on russ head. felipe lots of rainy, has cooled on west and states to restock payments. but among many politicians in the lane, attitudes of hon. this director of why is the same guy who said he was, he does not help. i'm us enough to what's the word child dollars that i'm the just a headquarter of the infrastructure of i'm asked was what was that the, the solve us, the i t stuff. and he said he did not know thi

i c j and presented all case very sought, as he worked on and very convincing. the put across the majority to of the judges agreed and the judgment was passed. we're expecting that then there are no more procedures that followed. watching that particular episode made me wonder him, do we have an equal rights at the united nations? do we have the people who can act with impunity and not allow to we took a decision that we would take the meta to the i c j. but before would take and the method to the positive we ourselves had taken a number of steps to try and see that we can normalize it. go to normalize the situation con, have these deaths going on? these are people, these are children and dying every day on your screen. what do you think the world is thinking? uh, i think there's going to be an immediate association of, of any shutting in, in, in that area or any of them being in that area before we can talk about, you know, what do we do next? every day, children dying guys. every day we have been covering this every single day and it's really terrible. it is w

and i believe that it will go to the i c, j, the international criminal court. the licensee is also investigating the ill treatment of palestinian detainees. so yes, i mean, a poorly old audited, frankly. was cro break? well, good. so but he knew there was of a 100 and. busy $7500.00 posted in prisons and probably more is ready. prisons and the information on the golf from people that stays with touching, simply cooperates in the city and pulling and degrading treatment. that's the gang fights since a star screw up. the patient in 1967 we've seen is really government accusations against b on right. employees have they actually been charged with any crimes? are they able to see attorneys is the un involved in trying to get them out? and what can you tell us about under employees who have been killed by these, or at least well as far as the 12, the gets to the allegations with levels of concerned. 3 of them are either missing all day. and i didn't know and i did it and it is the. busy about all of the others . so to the best of my knowledge, they've not been shot.

we discussed the latest i c. j. case with our guests from lebanon, south africa, as well as germany itself. i just think this case as the case where it was me, the south africa, this is about bringing base with front of the center. this is about in the world really routing the crime and cause that is the opposition for general side, the opposition of the mass murders connected punishment on entire population by unoccupied state. so, you know, i think i said what they say, and they may, they may not appear to what the, what the, i sent you a rules. both of us suddenly cut our country that our house already taking that us was to the i c j. and then day you as a decided simply to not directly and the next step, the wife called these are the stage in the eighty's like to come by, you know, the country that the songs from the country that easy. and i'll describe that part of that choice up here. i mean, a few years ago and nothing america to sound on the side of your mind. maybe i think it has a lot of, uh, you know, the

and it's also violation of the provisional measures ordered by the i c, j, the international court of justice on the 26th of january. when they said that no member state should take any action to limit humanitarian access in chicago. so that we have it. i think there was 3 main issues these way. it is a pushing one mister smith on russ and to the slips. the name the 2nd is to the fund. i'm right. i think that's on roughly and very last mediates to dismantle and rough and clearly that is an international consensus. it's the general assembly, or 195 nations of the us who give them the in span based on any the jet assembly can make any changes to august magic model single that the state like you. so congress decides on ruby of what these weigh, these i think are trying to do is use bureaucratic means to limit the work of hon. that certainly isn't the same as dispatching on the we're speaking with christopher goodness, the former spokesman for the united nations relief and works agency or unreal. stay right here. we have a lot more. then when we come back, we're going to talk with christo

the i c. j is on video to decatur to lawsuit against israel over its assault and gaza with the case broadband. because aguayo is the 1st to put one of his allies in the dock. it centers in germany's role as a primary supplier of weaponry to israel tournament is taking to our newest building up legation to prevention. the side which we have to respect of international humanitarian law. only the united states since mode ministry equipment to israel, then germany. but as washington does not recognize the sieges, judas dixon, a case against the us is considered and viable. because one has argued the germany's position to keep its weapon supplies flowing. often earlier, i see the ruling that is really supposed to be committing genocide mix. it completes it that's would be agree of accusation for any state. but nowhere does it cut quite as deep as in germany given its responsibility for the deadliest genocide of all the world war 2 holocaust. but also the genocide, early in the 20th century of the hey

c. j because germany is the only country that is, is where we know that the us is another key to know the number one don't know of weapons too as well. so why is that? and washington being taken full full. exactly. this is a very good point, but to make a rock or they did actually address this question on day one of the trial have a blessed a the people say, well hey, the principal provider is the united states. the 2nd providers tell me, why didn't you go to united states? united states simply does that accept the jurisdiction of the court. so we can come with that. think i should. i also think with the experience we had with the united states 40 years ago, even if we had jurisdiction through united states would not pay attention to the court. we feel that countryside germany will respect the court and we have hopes that with what the court decides is going to be accepted a waiver responsive to jerome. and he's going to accept what the court is going to say. so that's what that is our hop

and washington does not essentially recognize the i c, j. most likely would not sit before the court if prompted. does that's are somewhat less than what is happening at the hague right now. and i think that's what was happening in the notes of the stock is another story states member as to the calls itself and all the steps, most of the pension on prevention and uh, the, the punishment on the site. so the course we go on all of the new uh, but in the winter my budget was on the new measures. i do believe the hosted struggle but this because this is a good finding. the measures by default i'm really the car ones. just shoot these on those. the only done many of the us or the company is so now by this, under actions against the disco please most to some of the systems to commit to the global genocide. yes, the united states as a loves accept digital section of the core biometric, something that i think of the like all the conventions onto the site. but we believe that the, the local courts, bins, or us can be people, but it was for, for the b

c. j. and start to israel to do everything to prevent such atrocities. and some that taking place has got of salt that's been revealed that last year in germany supplied at 30 percent of israel as a total military imports as a 10 fold increase compared to the previous year. in total, over the past 2 decades, germany exported over $3500000000.00 worth of arms and equipment to the ideas we discussed to the latest i c. j. case with our guests from 11 on south africa as well as germany itself. i just think this case as the case where it was me, the south africa thinking about bringing base with front them center. this is about in the world really routing behind a cause that he's the opposition for general side, the opposition of the mass murder, elected punishment on entire population by an occupying state. so, you know, i think i said what they say, and they may, they may not appear to what the, what the ice is, your roots. but the fact that we cut our country that our house already taking that us want us to the i c j and then day you as a decided simply to

the case before the i c, j could take years to conclude. in the meantime, few in germany believe it will change much on the ground in gaza. our corresponding la children is at the international court of justice in the hague, where the hearing has just begun. lucio, let's look at the parties involved here. why is nicaragua taking germany to the i? c, j and germany is not the only country supporting israel military, nor the only one to suspend funding for audra for never the last german it has been it's, it's not there in the country that stopped the funding phone role, but it has been very vocal in supporting israel and we have heard from trans such roles right off the terrorist attack on october 7, by how much that at germany will help ease trail and really stand by side. and that this also comes from german responsibilities that it has to do to the heart of cost . and therefore, germany understands itself as a very staunch support of each writing. never. the less the tone in germany has changed over the last couple of weeks. also with rega

his lawyer had ha swigs for the dual role, jeremy's playing, and what the i, c, j is ready room to be a plausible case of genocide. it is indeed a pathetic excuse to the path to seeing in children, women and men and goss onto provides for many tabby and aids. including 2 ad drops on the one hand and to furnish the weapons and committee to re equipment the use to kill and many of them. and to kill also for many to be an age. because as most recently evidenced by the missile, i tech against vehicles and vehicles, a real central kitchen and the other had us had more now from steph bass and she is in the hague. with me, it must have been an uncomfortable 2 hours here for germany at the world's highest court in the hague. nicaragua had some harsh words for germany, saying if this facilitating turn aside in gaza, it's an interesting and unprecedented case because of the 2 countries here at the core of nicaragua. and so many, i'm not directly involved in the atrocities that are happening. and guys have left a new car aguilar, i use a germany as a signatory to the genocide. some sanction has

it is the responsibility of this concept and all the states to ensure that it is a pent the i c j, or that is an twice in the last 2 months to undertake. my job is to prevent that in an imminent threat of genocide, including to take own necessity, an effective measures to ensure without delay in furden cooperation with the united nations, the un hender provision at scale of urgently needed basic services and do many teddy and assistance to palestinians for out does that, but is it a breach? the problem is not that the council adopted the resolutions or that the i c j or the religion or the magic or that too many. he has elaborated the rules that lead the u. n. bodies to adopt these positions and which should be, or jeff, the problem is that is the gun violate these rules the minds and or those in for impunity? no one showed on, or she'd those committing atrocities. no one, no country should on or she those committing atrocities. they must be held accountable. or these crimes will continue phase to have such outrage for it's at that on for the nations from the center of the kitchen. th

i c j last. it also focuses on a key obstacle to peace in the middle east. the case does not certainly do waste the crimes under the genocide convention. it also addresses the fundamental issue or is rails or illegal occupation of palestine. and it makes specific reference, i understand that the, the case presented makes specific reference to the fact that the israeli is also in series breach of the it's guilty of serious violations of the convention against upon sites which uh, which is it was rectified in 1973, so it's been an integral power to international law for over 50 years. and it came into effect in 1976. and this moved on to tool, which is riley's engaged in genocide. and that the identified as being supported by many countries in dire in directly one of the main phones in the case of brought by um the correct way games germany is germany's um, the decision to talk to the aid now gemini, along with various other countries, reinstated that to 8 south african organizations have called on israel to stop recruiting the countries, nationals, and to the

and that it is possible for nicaragua to bring germany to the i c j. because both of these countries have accepted a compulsory jurisdictions that of the eyes and j, which for example, jim at which for example, the united states has not done mckayla's early days. of course, this is the 1st hearing what would happen if the icing j really ended up ruling in nicaragua was favor this. this is really a very remote possibility if cynthia is not on the cause at this very moment in time, that would be a condemnation of germany, of the west. and it would essentially legally prove that a country like germany was saying the one thing and actually doing the other, but this is not backed up by fact. so any kind of legal argument i must also add that the security of israel is a fundamental principle of durham and policy making and increasing the you're hearing voices here behind closed doors. that, that could mean, criticizing israel even more than in the past. as we're also seeing the united states do, and there's no question we also so the human rights committee, h

as the i, c j has demonte, what was happening is really is continuing to blow b a. there are hundreds of trust ways to rock that to get in. so looking for the on the kind of deliver, we've not got a situation where the governments have come by, the ability to switch these various produce with these false allegations against the stuff that was not so full in the way we don't know, there's no evidence of that whatsoever, because really come back now i pay tribute to unwrapped, of picking itself up, and it's now in a position where it could deliver a scale. you need to all these ratings now because the, the budget ministration as best as do not because of all the, all clear the international court of justice is clear. the icpc is clear. all those mechanisms are clear as well how to allow a to be delivered at scale. i'm right, is the main organization that can do that, and if that does not happen, well will be, will be a two's will be right for the accused all genocide from using solve ation, mass. so of issues as a weapon of who the will simply cannot allow as well to

i'm in the i c j and i've made that very clear. it's the clips that you very commendably, in my opinion, added to, to the status of your report. make absolutely clear and there's no done. that's a tool which is rarely is engaged in genocide and that the, the button, the site has been supported by many countries in direct and directly. one of the main phones um, in the case uh, brought by um the correct rankings. germany is jim and he is um, a decision to talk to uh the aid and supports to the united nations really from what agency to is the main humanitarian agency supporting the population of johnson, not germany along with various other countries, reinstate to dr. aid, but with severe restrictions making clear that they didn't want the un agency to be active in job, which is actually dishonest. but that's part of the case and that was really what do you by speaking to today? i really appreciate your time. steven sethkin coordinate to of to a t i consol pick media collective. thank you. you're very welcome. thank you. without the

as the i c j house to mom did. what was happening is really is continuing to blow b a several hundreds of trust way to a rock. that's a good thing. so looking for the on the kind of deliver, we've not got a situation where the demons have come by the door to door, which these ladies could use with these false allegations against the stuff that was not so full of the way we don't know, there's no evidence of that whatsoever, because really come back now, i pay tribute to unwrapped of picking itself up, and it's now in a position where it could deliver a scale. you need to all these ratings now because the, the budget ministration as best as soon the spot cliff, the international court justices split the icbc is clear. all those mechanisms are clear that is well housed to allow a to be delivered at scale. i'm right, is the main organization that can do that, and if that does happen, well will be, will be a two's will be right for the 2. 0 genocide, i'm using salvation mass store of issues as a weapon of hello the wil

the i, c, j on the read the statute is well must be held to account was different. this time is a 6 or 3, which is where, cuz of been killed. and whereas before we have of the 20072008 does what we have to goes to a report. and this way, these use that scare tactics and they crush stats and the well buckled the goals. so reported was a brand report with kids into the low cross, you've all disk into that and had to ship it, went through a mother and threatened, present a box. she said to the west bank, it's a gospel with this report because for some pretty strong arm tactics we use in the will buckled based on however, so not just been told by netanyahu, that would be an independent investigation. but i can tell you this media all of this, and they did want to see that independent investigation guess. well, they're going to want to see individual criminal responsibility. and that means the people who killed these people are responsible for the killing. all these people all have to criminal accounts, they need to be punished unless there's something different with the

c j. so hung down provisional measures including ordering gemini to suspend its military supplies to israel. earlier this year, south africa broke the little series at the same time, at the same quote rather against is as well accused in the country of terry and now some genocide to ox in garza, the i c j instructed as well to do everything to prevent subject falsities from taking place. it's been revealed that last year, gemini supplied us 30 percent, says as wells total military inputs, as a 10 fold increase compared to the previous year. and so sold over the past 2 decades to many expos over $3500000000.00 worth of items of the equipment. so the idea ecolog law says those weapons have been used to commit crimes against the people of garza. government is taking to on the way, showing up legation to prevention, the side, or to issue respect of international humanitarian law. the export of german weapons and committee to equipment to israel likely to be used for committing these grey formu

and again, this i think, goes to the heart of a lot of international criminal court in the i c, j. looking very seriously at these kinds of examples because these kinds of quotes can intervene when domestic called multiple candidates. and it's pretty clear that he is the, is rarely quotes, having no interest to, frankly, in addressing these and know that these riley political establish an old and the, the, it's important to note that this kind of culture and his role estimate and he's living in palestine that the culture within these royalties riley media is not this tennessee, but the g mechanize is kind of funny. and so as we were saying since october 7, q 2 mountain series riley spell which is proudly posting on the internet. seek talking instagram themselves, dehumanizing palestinians, blowing up palestinian homes that i think is directly connected to these kinds of cases with so many postings to billions, including now you to a literally waving lot flags killed in cold blood. all the rules of operation in a of engaged rules of engagement, i should say in these radio operations

or a steven stoughton told us the latest i c. j lawsuit also focuses on a key obstacle to peace in the middle east. the case does not certainly do waste the columns under the genocide convention. it also addresses the fundamental issue of israel's or illegal occupation of palestine and it makes specific reference. i understand that the, the case presented makes specific reference to the fact that the israeli is also in serious breach of the it's guilty of a serious violations of the convention against upon sites which, which is it was rectified in 1973. so it's been an integral power to international law for over 50 years. and it came into effect in 1976. and this moved on to tool, which is rarely is engaged in genocide. and that that genocide has been supported by many countries in dire in directly one of the main phones in the case of the correct riggins german ears. germany's a decision to talk to the aid that germany, along with various other countries reinstate to dance, age rushes and bass that are to view and as a choose the

c j. k is an island, some latin american countries as well showing support but, but south africa here, calling for a thorough and impartial investigation into these mass graves being founded to what at least one if not 2 now hospital sites and gaza. is it possible a be to, to even get an investigation underway? the war is still raging. i mean, i think good, absolutely. we'd have to come in there so that we can go to the end of the stuff we can. the international community was supportive south africa, but i mean the site to be as early as been acting with the complete impunity even off that we had lots of case at the i see jerry. and even though to the documentation to the requirements of the i, c, j is acted as a don't like, you know, a lot onto themselves and by law justice, because of the support of the wrist. it's america, the u. k. germany until they've just been in bold. and so i mean, i just, so now i'm coming across my time and i didn't have time to read that some of the victims the