susan: let's hear camille paglia in her own words. this is from 2017. was discussing her book, "free women, free men." [video clip] prof. paglia: i was not one of what we later would call pro-sex feminists. in the 1970's, for example, you know, i loved "charlie's angels." i loved "cosmopolitan" magazine. meanwhile, the other feminists were actually occupying helen gurley brown's offices and wanting the whole magazine to be shut down, etc. there is no way i could be taken into the women's movement. i was drummed right out of it right from the start. people who think she was made by feminism -- i was not made by betty friedan. as i say in the book, betty friedan did not create germaine greer in australia, and she did not create me in upstate new york. it is about time people realize that the transformations in women that happen very rapidly in the mid-20th century were not entirely due to the women's movement. susan: in the chapter, you not only talk about the more or less dumbing down of academia, but you also talk about the great rise in pornography as

host: who is camille paglia? guest: she is a humble professor. public intellectual of a time and rather old-fashioned today. there are not many celebrity professors. she burst onto the scene in the nine teen 90's with a book that became a bestseller phenomenon which is unusual for a doorstop of literary criticism but that is a testament to her rhetorical power. she is an inventive writer and when she ventured into punditry and weight into day-to-day culture in addition to her academic work, she made herself a celebrity commentator undeservedly because she is a really brilliant writer. host: what is your critique of her? guest: if you were to look at the accomplishment -- her compliments, their greatest one is the idea that popular culture is just as legitimate a subject of academic inquiry as the great classics. that is an uphill battle for her in the 90's when she was saying that madonna is just as legitimate a subject for me to be thinking about as a professor as nielsen. i think the consequences of that revolution, bringing pop culture into th