well let's bring professor carl heneghan into the conversation. he's the director of the centre for evidence based medicine at the university of oxford. i know, carl, that you went in and you did advise boris johnson at one stage, but then because you were sceptical about lockdown, you were rather frozen out of the process. i wonder in general what you make of the inquiry. three you wrote a piece for the spectator here where you basically what's the basically asked, what's the point it? are you still of point of it? are you still of that opinion, professor? >> well, look, i think we always sort of thought about government. it was a bit disorganised , disorganised and dysfunctional, but this is a window into how it works and it's a whole new level of distrust and dysfunctionality. so we're we're able to see the workings of government that we've never seen before. so i also think what's happening, though, is we're looking at government decision making . and happened is making. and what's happened is everybody's everybody . everybody's blaming everybo

yes, we've got the whole carl heneghan agreement, which is , heneghan agreement, which is, which is underhreat as well . which is under threat as well. stay with us, omar, because anything could go i'm going anything could go on. i'm going to to you, polly, in a to hand back to you, polly, in a few minutes. but omar, we're still looking this . still just looking at this. let's we'll keep going on let's just we'll keep going on this this issue of shannon, because shannon is the sort of the free movement across the most of the european union nafions. most of the european union nations . but most of the european union nations. but some countries most of the european union nations . but some countries now nations. but some countries now are are really worried about that. the impact of free movement of illegal migration through those countries . they through those countries. they may have come across the mediterranean to italy and then spreading out and some obviously arriving. do you see that? actually, shannon itself may fail as part of the international illegal migration crisis , as it's a v

britain's i've got sunita gupta and if and carl heneghan.he great barrington declaration , great barrington declaration, then we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. we wouldn't have lost lives. and this lost so many lives. and this covid is a complete covid inquiry is a complete joke, want at joke, and i want to just at least hold them for the least hold them up for the greatness of them. how good they were. greatness of them. how good they werright? two two strong >> right? well, two two strong choices i'm going to choices there. i'm going to go with macgowan because , you with shane macgowan because, you know, his funeral today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause his funeral today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'llneral today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'll be al today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'll be back ay. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'll be back on no, because you'll be back on and probably them and we'll probably nominate them again will. every agai

britain's i've got sunita gupta and if and carl heneghan.e great barrington declaration , great barrington declaration, then we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. we wouldn't have lost lives. and this lost so many lives. and this covid is a complete covid inquiry is a complete joke, want at joke, and i want to just at least hold them for the least hold them up for the greatness of them. how good they were. greatness of them. how good they werright? two two strong >> right? well, two two strong choices i'm going to choices there. i'm going to go with macgowan because , you with shane macgowan because, you know, his funeral today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause his funeral today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'llneral today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'll be al today. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'll be back ay. with shane macgowan because, you knobecause you'll be back on no, because you'll be back on and probably them and we'll probably nominate them again will. every again

yes, we've got the whole carl heneghan agreement, which is , heneghan agreement, which is, which is underell . which is under threat as well. stay with us, omar, because anything could go i'm going anything could go on. i'm going to to you, polly, in a to hand back to you, polly, in a few minutes. but omar, we're still looking this . still just looking at this. let's we'll keep going on let's just we'll keep going on this this issue of shannon, because shannon is the sort of the free movement across the most of the european union nafions. most of the european union nations . but most of the european union nations. but some countries most of the european union nations . but some countries now nations. but some countries now are are really worried about that. the impact of free movement of illegal migration through those countries . they through those countries. they may have come across the mediterranean to italy and then spreading out and some obviously arriving. do you see that? actually, shannon itself may fail as part of the international illegal migration crisis , as it's a very good c

we see that with the carl heneghan zone. you know, open borders across europe.the eu for illegal migration right across europe, completely uncontrolled , told the eu, as uncontrolled, told the eu, as you rightly , you made a really you rightly, you made a really pertinent point, if i may say so, darren, when you said the eu actually doesn't help with security , the creates security, the eu creates problems for security. let's just go back to greece in 2012 because of the common currency , because of the common currency, they couldn't deflate their currency to get out of their economic problems. so they had to deflate their economy with mass unemployment. mass youth unemployment. creates civil unemployment. that creates civil strife. civil strife leads to polarised politics, polarised politics. it leads to war. that's how bad the eu is. >> what do you say we should have closer ties with the us over the eu? >> we should be a proud independent united kingdom making british making policies for the british national and if we can national interest and if we can cooper

gupta or carl heneghan or doctor?ay, regardless of the talking to those the names, talking to those people are the people who are saying the vaccine dangerous and vaccine was dangerous and talking to the scientists who said wasn't, often at the said it wasn't, and often at the end the day, had to make end of the day, you had to make a responsible decision. and i went on the side of the went down on the side of the ones who i thought were most sensible, and that was the scientist who was saying the vaccine not dangerous and vaccine was not dangerous and was essential. was absolutely essential. >> just say >> and nigel, can i just say that gone that that you've gone down that line and still incredibly and you're still incredibly wrong. so shows you the wrong. so it just shows you the brainwashing of the media because you still believe that lockdowns work. and we know that you follow a narrative that issues . issues. >> let's be honest, because he comes to the left incredibly wrong . wrong. >> he's a very nice man. that'

there has been a hardening of the carl heneghan area in many countries, particularly those borderingby migration from north africa . and migration from north africa. and much of the justification for the tightening of those borders has been terror related. and france in particular has had a torrid year of terrorism. this attack on saturday, one german national killed and one british man injured . national killed and one british man injured. it's national killed and one british man injured . it's the second man injured. it's the second terror attack in france where britain's have been hurt. let's not forget, in july, a syrian national on a knife attack in southern france injured a british girl. so a really appalling year for terrorism in france. and it does seem that they've turned a corner under they've turned a corner under the liberal government of emmanuel macron saying, actually, we've got to get these people out of our country . people out of our country. >> charlie peters, thank you for that update . and it begs the that update. and it begs the question, if the question, doesn'