i lump claudia sahm in with carmen reinhart and vincent reinhart, with my essay of the summer on pandemicee with the reinharts that we are on the edge of a pandemic depression? claudia: yes, it is absolutely serious the economic conditions we are facing right now. claudia, you are allowed to have longer answers. it is a simulcast. but what is the difference between a recession and a depression? claudia: at this point, i wouldn't worry so much about the words. i am absolutely frightened at the fact that really has expired , particularly relief that was going to the unemployed and to small businesses. it doesn't matter what we call it. we are seeing an income crisis. we are seeing in action from washington, d.c. we can't afford to do this again. it will be worse than, say -- it would be worse than, say, the great recession. we are seeing levels that haven't been seen since the great depression. we can do this again. consumerve seen spending continued to remain strong. how do you reconcile this? claudia: person or -- personal income in july, 5% of it was due to the extra $600 that was going