caroline heldman who said unions are actually entitled to do this. caroline, oh mayan, you have some explaining to do. what do you think? >> well, neil, i think that wages hhve been stagnant since the early '80s because of decline in unions. that unions make wages 28% higher. neil: artificially higher. artificially higher. >> wages have not kept up with inflation nor have they kept up with, in terms of education and amount of --. neil: maybe they haven't kept up with reality and those jobs going overseas? >> no, corporations turned to the service sector and cut wages and cut benefits. we've seen stagnant wages. unions are the last defense against corporate republic has incredible political power and economic power more than it should have. we don't have good representation in government. neil: professor, you teach this in your classes. if i were in your class you would fail me. >> absolutely not. students look at data they reach their own conclusions and often look at union data and reach the conclusion that it is a backstop between american workers b