i just wonder whether you would reflect on what caroline hickman, the psychologist i was talking aboutinformation or experiences that are overwhelmingly difficult or disturbing." do you think there is some truth in that? oh, yeah, no, i'm sure there is truth in that. and that's why we have to be endlessly creative to try to reach people. and what you find within civil disobedience, and within the whole movement of which i consider myself a part, is a great flowering of creativity. people constantly trying to find new ways to break through. and sometimes we do. you know, if you look at the tremendous success of fridays for future, which was stifled by the pandemic, but right up until that point, when the pandemic came along, it was just growing and growing and growing and reaching parts of the media and parts of the political machine which other movements hadn't reached, and it did so through tremendous creativity. george monbiot, we have run out of time, but thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks very much, indeed. thank you, stephen. hello there. a north—south divide ac