. >> catherine litronate, you mentioned earlier the state players. is china if ret and is the chinese government in your view directing some of these cyberattack? >> in terms of the reporting and what has been discussed publicly already, there is pretty good indication that at least the two states that if not explicitly conducting them at least backing them through other parties proxy's. that is a sycophant problem dealing with complicates attribution when policymakers actually want to make decisions as to what the proper response would be from the u.s. and it's gone beyond the major concern right now as intellectual property theft which is a problem for national security but we are moving beyond that that it's not limited to just dealing with the country's secrets or technological advancing. so, with china, russia and its proxies', we need to have our doctrine prepared, our policies in line with the international law that what our response would be in the case of the state using proxies' to attack us. and what would be ever defense if eight defense

>> catherine litronate? of of the defensive side and start thinking more offensively and we are talking at an asian state level so international engagements become critically important. >> can you give an example of what you mean by offense? >> it is very much tied to the defense and there are technologically related as well as the policy and legal interconnected part of it is knowing the offensive capability and using them so it's not going to be 100%. one than it is logical to come to the conclusion as many have been used to see what is referred to as a more aggressive defense. we get into the area of more aggressive defense rather from the government or the product and this is an important aspect of the role of the private sector that is in effect offensive work. some termed it a more aggressive defense, more aggressive security. >> james lewis, same question. >> i don't believe in threats. i think when you have is a remarkably in secure infrastructure built that way, insecure the way the internet works n