. >> why would they deserve an award for not attacking members of the catholic church? is there an expectation that we would attack the church? >> we have in the past. look at the pedophilia scandal. the arguments were so divisive in the conversations were so polluted and i really -- >> over the -- of the contraception thing? >> about fed peela earlier. >> i don't see tension here at all. >> i do. >> pedophilia is a grow tefk crime. >> it was torment the by the media. it came out against something that it believed in. >> to come back to your point about catholic leaders, the new york archbishop, timothy dole anned wrote the crime is about five days after the announcement. even that didn't kick start this kind of coverage, and i have to say you talk about giving props, two liberal commentator says, chris matthews at the top, and e.j. from the washington post columnist were outraged. they happen to be catholic. >> outraged by? >> by the obama policy criticized their side, so to speak. >> it merited an earlier and deeper examination. there's no question about it. as i say,

members of the catholic church are. i don't know a single catholic, not one that ever observed catholic teachings on this matter. rick santorum claims he's the one. if he is he's the one. how did it come to bethat in the discussions in the white house that we ended up at this particular highly politicized intersection that we see now? was the president, in effect, warned this kind of argument would be coming? >> i'm not going to get in to discussions with the president and what he was or wasn't told. how this protection for women came in to being is because the health care law required for the first time ever preventative services for women to be covered by insurance companies. according to, you know, medical experts and scientists, cotra sepgs was a critical piece of those preventative services. so, by law, we had to require insurance companies to cover it with no cost sharing for women no out of pocket costs. in crafting this proposal, special attention was paid to a church exclusion. many of these states have the same

less than amused. >>> up next, how much did the fight between the obama administration and the catholic churche'll ask our strategists when we come back. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. early stages of cancer and it's something that we're extremely proud of. you see someone who is saved because of this technology, you know that the things that you do in your life, matter. if i did have an opportunity to meet a cancer survivor, i'm sure i could take something positive away from that. [ jocelyn ] my name is jocelyn, and i'm a cancer survivor. [ mimi ] i had cancer. i have no evidence of disease now. [ erica ] i would love to meet the people that made the machines. i had such an amazing group of doctors and nurses, it would just make such a complete picture of why i'm sitting here today. ♪ [ herb ] from the moment we walked in the front door, just to see me -- not as a cancer patient, but as a person that had been helped by their work. i was just blown away. life's been good to me. i feel like one of the luckiest guys in the world. ♪ it's this... the etrade pro platform. finds top perfo

this is a man that is deeply committed to wage war on the catholic church. e country knows who he really is. a cry to arms. a peace treaty announced among moderate catholics. maybe not right wing ones. it seems like newt gingrich is trying to wave the bloody shirt there. >> that's the reddest of red meat t whoever the republican nominee is, even if it's mitt romney, whoever the nominee is is going to use that kind of argument. however, the hhs rules, they are going to say the president is engaged in a war on religion, the president doesn't respect religion and he's engaged in a liberal overreach across the board in health care law and then against people's religious freedom. it's going to be something that rallies the base and some campaign rhetoric and even ads on radio probably no matter who the nominee is. no matter how this is resolved. >> whab what we're watching is a recognition the economy is getting better. they have to switch to the social issues and get a bit desperate. mark halperin, thank you. david corn, thank you. up next, what did michele bachm

catholics gather tomorrow trying to stop sex abuse in the church. this was the gulf's best tourism season in years. all because so many people came to louisiana... they came to see us in florida... make that alabama... make that mississippi. the best part of the gulf is wherever you choose... and now is a great time to discover it. this year millions of people did. we set all kinds of records. next year we're out to do even better. so come on down to louisiana... florida... alabama... mississippi. we can't wait to see you. brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home. >>> happening overseas, violence and death in syria, at least 41 died in clashes with troops. an enormous crowd packed the city of homs to mourn the hundreds of people killed in what witnesses call a government ordered massacre. >>> in the uk two to four inches of snow fell overnight. that's pretty heavy for london. big fun for kids with sleds there, throwing snowballs. pretty big headache for travelers. heathrow canceled about half its scheduled flights today. troublesome

catholic church has been beaten up the last 10, 11 years. and i think catholics are tired of the government and others beating up on the church. that's, in my view, one of the political facts behind this rather extraordinary reaction across the catholic spectrum. >> see, to me, every woman should have a right to make decisions. men make them. women should make them with equal power and rights. obviously, that's not the issue. if that was the issue, i wouldn't be concerned about the way this developed. i think it's a question of the church. i guess i grew up watching movies like "beckett" and "man for all seasons" and seeing the church and state go to war with each other and being told stories about the maccabees. the state requires you to eat pork. it gets to that interesting point to me which is frightening when the state tells the church what to do. then the church can no longer teach. if the church teaches it's morally wrong to use birth control, how can you make the teacher pay for birth control without losing their moral authority? that'

what this is doing -- as mark indicated, the catholic church is not just a church. it does social outreach and good works. liberals say that in the church you can appoint anybody want and we will leave you alone, but when you step into society, you have to be under our heel and you have to provide a morning- after pill, which for catholic in the hierarchy of the church is an abomination, otherwise you are cut off. that is liberal secular arrogance. >> the susan g. komen foundation, a leading breast cancer research group, says it is cutting funding for planned parenthood because planned parenthood is the subject of an investigation by congress. planned parenthood says that the foundation has caved to political bullying. >> there is a huge e-mail and internet storm which is -- >> the mayor of new york has donated $250,000. >> social networking will have the effect of driving back the komen >> foundation. >> if you live in the medical world, which i do a little bit because i married to a doctor, the komen foundation is much more controversial for the position that has

, it is about whether any church, my church, catholic church, your church, can make the countryo what they want to do the laws of the state -- >> separate coverage. >> of a church, let's be clear about that. that's the problem this is a democracy you not a theocracy. let me go back to you, a minute, richard. >> when you make the church do something it doesn't want to do, that is an attack on the chur. >> not telling the church,conduct its services, they are going to say if you are going to have things that are going to operate outside the order of your woreship, you have to follow the laws of the state. the church can't come along and say we will operate schools, hospitals do whatever we want. >> you want the catholic church to stop doing all the -- >> i want the catholic church to follow the same law that my church and anybody else -- >> contraception that's a war on religion, of course it s >> richard, let give you the last word. >> no one is making anyone do contraception. >> sure it is. ask bill daley, richard. >> hold on, you have had plenty of time. let's just take your po

the catholic church has slammed the new rule as an ttack on religious freedom.buu a recent poll showshat 58 percent of cathhlics agree that birth control should be covered. suppprters say that's because the real issue is about women's access to health care. "this is a issue of women's health and i think catholic charities believe very deeply that women get the ealth care they need."the white house has signaled it's willinggto compromise with religious institutiins."we want to work with all these organizations po implement this policy in a their concerns as possible." senior administration officials say policy makers are now looking for an alternate solution --including allowing employees to purchase contraceptive coverage directly from insurers.i'm tommy andres reporting. 28 states already have similar coverage requirements.the new pollcy goes into effect on august 1st... but religiouss groups will have a year-long extension to enforce the rule. here in maryllnd... the baltimore archdiocese is taking a strong standdagainst plan tt include contraception in it's health care coverage pla

dense of autonomy and integrity that the constitution gives to religion. >> kimberly: andrea, the catholic churchwar with the obama administration. >> andrea: they are. a terrible place for the administration to be. battling the highest level of the cat lick church or any religious institution. remember in november, he sat down, dolan sat down with the president and the president gave him his word he would work with the catholic church and work together on charities. we know a lot of charities if they decide to defy the mandate, they will have to pay for example, the catholic charities that employee 70,000 employees. $140 million to the "wall street journal" in fines. that is $140 million less to stick the needy, the poor, the same group that the administration claims they care about, less money going to them. >> kimberly: that is who they are penalizing. >> andrea: bad thing for them. >> eric: it's also -- first, i'd like to say it's fan tast take the catholic church is digging in the sand and making this an issue. it's really about the religious freedom and the overreach of government in every

but you've got the left of the catholic church and you've got the hierarchy of the catholic church.eing joined together. you can feel it being joined together by the sense of, hey, to the government, don't push us around. don't push us around. and that's what it's coming down to. and the white house badly misjudged this. they were told in effect flat out, i think by the vice president of the united states, the former chief of staff, and by several others, there's no need to do this. we can -- you know, widen the exemption. there's no need to do this. but a combination of planned parenthood lobbyists and a couple of the united states senators and kathleen sebelius said, no, we can do it and do it now. it should be done, let's not avoid that issue, it ought to be done. but there was a way to do it better than they did it and they got blind sided by it and they've stepped on their own larger story, the mortgage settlement because people are talking about the hhs deal instead of the mortgage settlement. >> well, again, i think they're going to see a way forward. but chris, could you exp

do you -- is there an catholic church movement? do you see it growing? do you see the church? s interesting is -- there are a few groups, catholics for free choice, other groups -- >> call to action. >> call to action. these are pretty small groups that good media attention. what i found was the opposite happened. even though 95% catholics used contraception, 90% believe it is individual conscience, you saw positive sean michael winters that went to the map for obama, members of my family who often question that teaching on contraception and all of whom immediately slipped against obama. and i think there is a misconception the catholic church is just a set of beliefs people subscribe to and you can just drive a wedge into that. when actually the thing functions also like a family and just because you don't agree with what urncles is at thanksgiving dinner does not mean you are going to sit there quietly while someone starts pushing him around. >> that's why we have separation of church ask and state. >> in the case of political reality i think this is an interesting point. i f

the catholic church is fighting back. the government ought not be in a position where they are forcing the catholic church to fund things fundamentally contrary to catholic beliefs. at the end of the day you will see republicans and democrats across the board, catholics and noncatholics standing up against it and if the catholic church fights and pushes up against it i think it will win. it goes to the core of who we are as americans. if the federal government is telling people that they must in fact pay for contraception and the morning after pill that the catholic church disagrees with or face fines that could be potentially devastating. >> chris: how do you respond and the argument that the administration is making which is we are not saying that the women have to use birth control we are saying there should be a choice. the vast majority of catholic women in fact do use birth control. >> three quarters of catholic women do use birth control. it is almost universal in the country. this is not a first amendment issue. n

and the catholic church is upset and so is liz cheney. >> it is important that the catholic church is. the government shouldn't force the catholic church to force things that are contrary to catholic beliefs. in the end of the day, republicans and democrats across the board, catholics and noncatholics standing up against this. as the catholic church fights, it is it likely to win. it is the core of who we are as merps. the federal government tells people they must pay for contraception and morning after pill. and face fines that are devastating. >> chris: how do you respond to that and the argument that the administration is making. we are not saying they have to use birth control. but we are saying they have a choice and the vast majority of women do use birth control. >> yes, birth control is universal in this country and this is not a first amendment issue and a matter of religious liberty . no one said the church has to do it. we are talking about charities and schools and some cases hospitals. this is federal government money that is allocated . why we should say one orthodoxy. >

the catholic church. >> not everybody who works for catholic organizations is catholic. ave to find ways --. >> sean: we're going to force the church. >> we're asking the employers to do the job. >> there is no health insurance company that gives anything for free. >> there is no such thing as free. you are talking about tax payer subsidies. the overwhelm idea about this being unconstitutional, i agree with you. i think it treads on the first amendment. but again this is no surprise. obamacare which is the umbrella policy of all of this. that is going before the supreme court. it puts the entire thing and individual mandate is so controversial. >> sean: i was watching earlier today and played a segment on the "new york times" best-seller ameritopia and he talks about the era we live in now. he is arguing that kathleen sebelius by not going to the justice department, not looking at the constitution by basically shredding it in this case, it could be in an area. >> the book is fans and i think he is right and we're living in this period that is post-constitutional. people t

on the one hand the catholic church. they do not want to be forced to pay money for insurance plans for contraception for even their non-catholic employees although they do pay those employees money. the argument could be paid by paying church money, is used for entrance fees to clubs or cats to have sex with dogs. ace street and third avenue. ( cheers and applause ) on the other hand, big business. on the other side are women who for some reason would like to have preventive health care costs provided by their health care insurance provider. tough case because the sides are the catholics and women. both are infallible. am i right? so last thursday congressman darrell issa convened a panel that settled the issue. while no ladies were actually allowed to speak until the afternoon session and no ladies actually ever spoke on behalf of ladies, some of these fellows were wearing gowns. so that's something. let's hear the tone that the sausagefest struck in this effort to find balance between religious liberty and the realitie

the catholic church calling it attack on religious freedom and religious rights groups say nothing less will end gender discrimination. catholic hospitals and universities that see contraception as violation of their faith will not have to pay for it but their insurance companies will have to reach out directly to women employees and offer contraception free of charge. catholic officials say there is no way their organizations can contribute to contraception even though most catholic women use it. people are already saying this accommodation might not satisfy the bishops and catholic church leaders and that means the story here might not be over unless the focus changes from one of religious freedom to one of women's rights. jenna. jenna: that is interesting debate. which direction it goes we don't know at this time. we have heard reports, wendell, we heard from the vice president on the radio show in ohio, we heard reports that the president was warned this particular rule would cause an uproar. tell us a little bit about some of those reports and what you're hearing. >> reporter: well

that does not mean that evybo else, if employed by a catholic charity, is exempt from the civil-rights law. >> the church does a lot of social good. they have soup kitchens and take care of people. do we really want to drive a catholic hospital out of the busines of caring for the poor and sick? >> mark shields made that argument last wee >> obama's on arguments at the prayer breakfast that he is engaged in god's work. he is conceding that charity good works, are a form religiosity, and then he denies a catholicic hospital an exemption on the grounds that it is not a religis institution? explain that to . >> colby? >> i was recentltly treated at t a catholic hospital and there was no exercise of religion any point. i just got the medical care. >> principle -- >> the religious question never came -- i was treated at the hospital the same way that i would have beenreated at any other hospital. ♪ ♪ our machines help identify early stages of cancer and it's something that we're extremely proud of. you see someone who is saved because of this technology you know that the things that you do in your life, matte

the catholic church is fighting back.he government ought not be in a position where they are forcing the catholic church to fund things fundamentally contrary to catholic beliefs. at the end of the day you will see republicans and democrats across the board, catholics and noncatholics standing up against it and if the catholic church fights and pushes up against it i think it will win. it goes to the core of who we are as americans. if the federal government is telling people that they must in fact pay for contraception and the morning after pill that the catholic church disagrees with or face fines that could be potentially devastating. >> chris: how do you respond and the argument that the administration is making which is we are not saying that the women have to use birth control we are saying there should be a choice. the vast majority of catholic women in fact do use birth control. >> three quarters of catholic women do use birth control. it is almost universal in the country. this is not a first amendment issue. not

i go to catholic church. nothing has changed.y're still requiring catholic churchs, hospitals, universities, to provide the service. now the catholic church isn't going to have to pay the $20 a month. they'll make the insurance company pay. guess what happens when you are the insurance company? what do you mean i have to pay for this? >> dana: raise premiums. >> eric: bingo. >> kimberly: it goes right back. pip pong across the table. clever, pretty crafty because he is moving. it you have to keep your eyes on the hands as they're shifting around. but still the core issue here why did this administration do this? why did they choose to put politics over religion? he was advised not to do it. >> eric: if that is your job to sell it, you didn't do a good job. >> bob: what has changed is come november this is going to be a nonvoting issue. >> eric: you hope it is. last year, sorry, last election cycle barack obama had 54% of the vote from catholics. you better hope that doesn't change. >> bob: we'll see what happens. if you listen to