deeply engaged in the ongoing debate about the future of catholicism in america. professor, good to have you on this program. >> thank you so much. tavis: let me start with the obvious. many of us, even those of us who are not catholic, this has not happened in 600 years, so it has not happened in our lifetimes, that we have had an ex-pope. >> certainly, this is a significant historical event. this is the first pope to step down in 600 years and one of only 10 in the entire history of the catholic church. people are really curious what this means. will it is ring be smashed. will he continue to be in fallible. catholics are figuring this out as they go along. i think the most recent reports are that they are going to smash his ring and that the pope will no longer be in fallible once he steps down on february 28. i think the vatican itself is really trying to figure this out because this really is unprecedented. tavis: so for the catholic church, he is like the voice of god, but he is still living, and i am not trying to be funny, i am trying to figure out how thi

it would usher in a new era in catholicism. the church has not had a non westernport in the modern age -- non-western pope. many feel it would create a more global church. his sudden resignation leaves the door open to many possibilities and maybe the most modern of thing to happen to the church yet. >> we should admire him. it's a good example to other leaders. if you cannot fulfill your duties as a leader, then you should step down. >> with his departure on their minds, the faithful at st. joseph's in hong kong prepare for service. they are praying for his successor and have faith that no matter what's, the catholic church will survive. al jazeera, hong kong. >> and stories that we will keep an eye on, child trafficking victims, a verdict expected in a trial of six french aid workers charged with trying to smuggle more than 100 children out of africa. an important day for homosexual couples hoping to get married in france. parliament is expected to approve a law allowing them to get married and to adopt children. he was throw

. >> merge catholicism is experiencing something of an identity crisis, catholics now have twice voted for a president who one might consider to be the most liberal on right to life issues that we have ever had. is that catholic identity crisis in the united states of kern to the vatican? >> it should be of concern to everyone, although i would underscore that catholics who are regularly practicing catholics, mass once a week catholics voted overwhelmingly for governor romney the last time. so the catholic vote such as it is, skews long a line between regularly practicing to nonpracticing. the church in the united states, i think is in the best shape it's been in in the past 20 years. this easter, about 250,000

the nuns are such an important effect of part of catholicism in the structure of the catholic church as it seemed around the world however has lost its mission of making sure that those nuns are educating children that those nuns are out in the communities and being part of the communities i think that you know peter thank you for making the point that although terry's particular congregation is very open to l g b t folks that is not the vatican line and when you look at the when you look at simply from the public health perspective what does it do when the pope says that only in certain circumstances is condom use ok when there's still a doctrine that says that contraceptive is wrong contraceptive usage even within a marriage is absolutely mortal sin even in this over overpopulated planet even in the days we live in now where science teaches us that not every woman should have every baby the. her that her husband and her can create together. it's just it's it's taking women and it's taking the heart of the church because frankly women are the heart of the church we have the babies w

church of love and compassion and empathy i think what we need is a pope from the south because catholicism has moved rapidly south it's become more and more distanced from the north and the secularization of the north and i am a former catholic but i still have a very strange franciscan version of kind of. a creationism that admits and loves evolution and so forth but i think we need a southern pope i would like us to have barefoot pope i'd like the church to give up all of its pop pomp and circumstance and look again. on the ground to the world you know but nancy what i mean they've been saying that about the church for a very long time now haven't they. they have they have. well there was john the twenty third and there was a vatican council and unfortunately the church turned its back on that very very important moment in the history of catholicism and you know i i would like to say i'm optimistic if they the people whose names have been put up are not. potentially the ones that i would like to see i'd like to see a leonardo baf i'd like to see one of the hereto well you might you might

the nuns or are such an important effect of part of catholicism in the structure the catholic church as it seemed around the world however has lost its mission of making sure that those nuns are educating children that those nuns are out in the communities and being part of the communities i think that you know peter thank you for making the point that although terry's particular congregation is very open to l. g.b.t. folks that is not the vatican line and when you look at the when you look at simply from the public health perspective what does it do when the pope says that only in certain circumstances is condom use ok when there's still a doctrine that says that contraceptive is wrong contraceptive usage even within a marriage is absolutely mortal sin even in this over overpopulated planet even in the days we live in now where science teaches us that not every woman should have every baby the. her that her husband and her can create together. it's just it's it's taking women and it's taking the heart of the church because frankly women are the heart of the trends we have the babies

the nuns or are such an important effect of part of catholicism in the structure the catholic church as it seemed around the world however has lost its mission of making sure that those nuns are educating children that those nuns are out in the communities and being part of the communities i think that you know peter thank you for making the point that although terry's particular congregation is very open to l. g.b.t. folks that is not the vatican line and when you look at the when you look at simply from the public health perspective what does it do when the pope says that only in certain circumstances is condom use ok when there's still a doctrine that says that contraceptive is wrong contraceptive usage even within a marriage is absolutely mortal sin even in this over overpopulated planet even in the days we live in now where science teaches us that not every woman should have every baby the. her that her husband and her can create together. it's just it's it's taking women and it's taking the heart of the church because frankly women are the heart of the church we have the babies

if you look around the landscape of global catholicism, you see that catholicism is very important in america and south africa. should that be a consideration in choosing the next pope, finding someone who might be able to grow the flock in area where is catholicism is least represented? >> reporter: first of all the church is actually in very bad shape in a lot of western europe. and what we need, i think, what the church needs, is a pope who wherever he comes from is such a radically converted disciple of jesus crist is that he can invite people to consider the possibility of crist faith. we have seen that come from a pope from poland, who know one had ever heard of, we have seen it manifested in an elderly man whom people thought they knew and found out had a few surprises up his sleeve. so i don't think where a man comes from is as significant as the department of his faith and the transparency of his personality as an invitation to faith for others. >> not to state the obvious here, but one of the most unusual aspects of choosing the successor is that the current pope, the previo

there is a modern church as well, and the book is evangelical catholicism. it's never more relevant than now and written by someone that knows benedict xvi and knew john paul ii very well, and we'll be talking to you in a bit. thank you very much. >>> what's on the president's mind today? that's next. at the white house president obama is preparing for a state of the union speech focussing on the economy, while vice president biden at this hour is in philadelphia pushing for new gun laws. we're breaking it down next in "the daily fix." this is andrea mitchell reports only here on msnbc. with tasty grilled flavor and goodness to savor ♪ ♪ friskies grillers blend. ♪ feed the senses. a great cup of coffee should be easy as one, two... well, just one. new single serve cafe collections from maxwell house now available for use in the keurig k-cup brewer. always good to the last drop. tell me you have good insurance. yup, i've got... [ voice of dennis ] ...allstate. really? i was afraid you'd have some cut-rate policy. nope, i've got... [ voice of dennis ] the alls

i can't -- it's better that i speak not directly to the influence on catholicism anyway.i think what it reflects is the declining influence of institutions. you're looking at the catholic church, which you can't avoid the conclusion that over the seven years of pope benedict's influence, that it's been enveloped in controversy. whether or not you're talking about business succumbing to upstarts in garages or the ability of the catholic church to dictate the beliefs of people that are now tailoring religion to their own personal views. whether or not that's good or bad, that's what's happening. it shows the declining influence of institutions in our world and the empowerment of kind of personalized individualism. >> fascinating. thank you so much for being with us. will cain, l.z. granderson. >> you bet. >>> it's hard to forget the legacy whitney houston left behind. ♪ i should stay i would only get in the way ♪ >> one year ago today, whitney houston drowned in a hotel room in a bathtub. even know, some of our best friends are pausing to remember what houston meant to them

she was a convert to catholicism who fed the poor, defied authority, opposed all war, and is now being considered for sainthood. >>> and this weekend of the grammy awards, kim lawton looks at the new mainstream success for contemporary christian music. ♪ >>> welcome. i'm bob abernethy. it's good to have you with us. there was more attention this week to the ethical debate weaponized drones in the war on terror. the discussion came amid a senate intelligence committee confirmation hearing for john brennan, nominated to be the next head of the cia. brennan helpelead the obama adminisation's largely secret drone program. a leaked memo revealed the justice department's view that it is legal for the government to kill u.s. citizens overseas if it believes they pose an "imminent threat," even if there is no evidence of an immediate specific attack. some ethicists say that amounts to illegal targeted killings. >> they are not the best strategy, they are not ethically right, and they are not morally right. >>> after much campaigning by outside groups obothides, t boy scouts postponed until may

american catholicism certainly has had its challenges, but it's met many of them very beautifully. >> what you'll be watching for. already the speculation has begun, and i won't necessarily ask you to name names, but is there a sense should it be a younger pope, someone from one of the these emerges areas where catholicism is growing so strongly where they're producing a lot of priests? what will you be looking for in this conclave this. >> i think as they chose benedi benedict, they will look for the best person, the best person to lead. it might be from a developing country, it might be from one of the first world countries. we really don't know, but i would personally looking for the quality of the person that is elected. >> bishop mansour, thank you so much. it's a pleasure to meet you. >> thank you. >>> today's tweet of the day comes from a friend of the show -- at some point, he says, the church will accept contraception and female and non-sell bat priest. could it be in the next papacy? . when they tell you that you need your oil changed you got to bring it in. if your tires ne

the nuns are are such an important effect of part of catholicism in the structure of the catholic church as it seemed around the world however has lost its mission of making sure that those nuns are educating children that those nuns are out in the communities and being part of the communities i think that you know peter thank you for making the point that although terry's particular congregation is very open to l g b t folks that is not the vatican line and when you look at the when you look at simply from the public health perspective what does it do when the pope says that only in certain circumstances is condom use ok when there's still a doctrine that says that contraceptive is wrong contraceptive usage even within a marriage is absolutely mortal sin even in this over overpopulated planet even in the days we live in now where science teaches us that not every woman should have every baby the. her that her husband and her can create together. it's just it's it's taking women and it's taking the heart of the church because frankly women are the heart of the church we have the babies w

recuse himself from the vote.o >> the conclave should be an opportunity to celebrate the future of catholicismith the cardinal's participation, we are reminded of the sins of our leaders, and second we're reminded of the general lack of accountability. >> reporter: church filesaccoun released last month show mahoney concealed from police the names of priests accused of sex abuse. in 1988, he wrote to an aide:8, he wr mahoney no longer has any formal role in the local church. despite being sidelined here in lo los angeles, cardinal mahoney isah still considered to be in good standing with the catholice church. that means the 76-year-old istil required to vote in papal conclaves until he's 80 years old or too sick to attend. italian newspapers are filled with stories about mahoney's role in shielding priests. one cardinal is quoted ase saying, "it will be up to mahoney's conscience to decide whether to take part or not." father thomas is a theology professor at loyola marymount university. >> he's made mistakes, he's acknowledged his mistakes but-- - and there are people that thinkhin he should

choice it would be an american because of the position of the united states within the world of catholicismit would be more likely to be someone who is more traveled, has more language facility. of course, the cardinal in canada is perhaps the most proficient linguist of all of the cardinals. >> it seems very unlikely that it would be an american, that people i have spoken to almost say that is not a possibility at all, but who knows really? it's really anybody's guess. what we've been hearing just talking to the people who have come to rome, who have been coming to visit the vatican, is that they hope that the new pope will bring more energy, that it will be someone junger, more dynamic, who can reinvigorate the church and obviously this is a time when there's great sad ands great confusion, but a lot of people will tell you, look, this pope didn't capture the hearts of a lot of young people. he was not the most care iz matic, and he did not draw the enormous crowds that his predecessor did, and there is a feeling that catholicism is in danger and that they need someone who can give it a p

as you know, catholicism goes beyond those who hold the reins in vatican city, and the global body ofon believers. as one of the most influential irns tugss, the catholic church encompasses those around the world who don't identify with the catholic faith, but benefit from the work of the church and the organizations it has created. the church has been an advocate for the human rights and the dignity of the most marginalized people, and providing care for the sick, and the homes for the homeless, and food for the hungry. you are the largest provider of health care and education. and for students of color catholic schools are the only affordable alternative for quality education. but cardinals, even as the church has been a channel for good, it has been a conduit for injustice around the world. the doctrine intransigence of the pope being infallible has come at the expense of policies that recognize and address realities in the modern world. women in underdeveloped nations and war torn countries need to have access to contraception, and prevent deaths in childbirth, and yet where the c

. >> i think some of the challenges are similar to what they were in 2005, which is making catholicismible as against modern notions of the nation of love, the nature of freedom. the nature of progress. >> reporter: the big question in the immediate future, who's next? ♪ in a few short weeks now as they did nearly eight years ago. the cardinals will gather in rome, enter the sistine chapel in formal procession with the frescos soaring above them and lock the door behind them and pick the next pope. it is an ancient and secretive process, part politics, part prayer and always a potential for stunning surprise. so among the front runners, the archbishop of milan. well liked and close to pope benedict, and a return of the italians to the pope. a cardinal from ghana could be the first black pope. >> think of it. think of what a picture that would present. >> reporter: and the archbishop of sao paulo, brazil. and new york's affable cardinal dolan is being mentioned though many believe a superpower pope from the u.s. is unlikely and he dismissed the idea. >> what are the odds of a north amer

means to you personally. >> catholicism and christianity is you live it.it in the corner. >> sometimes the dogmas are just too strict for me. i do believe in compassion but i think, you know i'm a little more open with choice. i think, you know a woman's right to choose, that goes against the catholic church. >> i don't believe in abortion. however, in this society now, i'm just not going to tell somebody else you can't do it, you know. and that kind of puts -- that puts you at odds with your own beliefs. in this society, you have to be more or less politically correct. >> it's evolved. the catholic religion has not. >> when you go to p.c. you don't have a conversation like this. i mean, it's crazy. i can't say, gee, i love christ you know, because somebody may be muslim. wait a minute, i have friends who are muslim we talk about things. what religion somebody is. there's good and bad in everything. >> what's happening to the church? >> need i remind you of the scandals of the past ten years? of what has happened? >> at this point, if i had to leave my chi

he's an expert on catholicism and pope benedict. good morning. >> good morning, charlie. how are you? >> good. this is stunning. knowing what you know about the church and about the pope, if he felt this way, that he couldn't do his job, does it surprise you he said i have to step down? >> it surprises me very much and i think it surprises all papal observers. it's not unprecedented. it's happened one other times but in contemporary time it's rare. i think he's looking at his predecessor whose decline was bad for him and for the church. i think maybe he thought in light of that the best thing for the church and his health is to resign. >>> norah o'donnell here. the pope quoted, yesterday, we are all sinners, but his grace transforms us and makes us new. what does 'do you make of that? >> it's going to be a new thing for him. we have not had a pope resign in 600 years. what he'll do is unknown. maybe he was talking about his personal life. >> can i ask about the elephant in the room which is you know the catholic church has grappled with the series of sexual abuse scandals

over the last few years, catholicism has grown in the developing world. in its birthplace of europe, he has found the tides of secularism, all but impossible to stem. the pope defended moslems by quoting historical criticisms of it is lomb. -- islam. he has faced criticism over the handling of the sexual abuse crisis. he has been accused of doing too little to prevent abuse by priests. >> there is a suspicion that they were being shielded by j.p. ii rather than by him. >> he hoped he could build up a struggle church, but in seven years, there was little that he could do. >> for more on what this means, i enjoined by the professor at the catholic university of america. thank you for coming in. were you surprised by this announcement? >> in one sense, yes, because popes do not do this. in another sense, no. pope benedict is a very humble man and realistic man. the job requires energies of mind and body that he no longer has. he has felt free to step down. it is the end of an era, it is the beginning of another. it is the end of the popes that are very close

christianity, catholicism, it is not just a collection of bands and provisions. it's a positive option. to start with, it is this task we are charged with to make clear what positive things we want and we work across cultures and religions. the african and the asians are terrified of our cold rationality. what i want to pass on is the courage to dare to make inclusive decisions, the ones that make growth and progress possible, ones freedom but givee proper direction and space. the courage to make that conclusively to really embrace life. >> benedict oversaw a catholic church facing one of its most typical times. working to keep the church relevant, he maintained the importance of individual transformation. >> let's go back to our religious affairs correspondent. how much will the pope be missed? >> he will be criticized particularly within germany and the society in general quite a lot, but i think when he is removed from the center of power and he retires to some monastery and disappears from the public eye, he will emerge as this comfortable old grandfather pop

. >> i think some of the challenges are similar to what they were in 2005, which is making catholicism relevant and comprehensible as against modern notions of the nature of love, the nature of freedom, the nature of progress. >> reporter: the big question in the immediate future, who's next? ♪ in a few short weeks now as they did nearly eight years ago the cardinals will gather in rome, enter the sistine chapel in formal procession with the magnificent michelangelo frescos soaring above them and take their places, lock the door behind them, and pick the next pope. it is an ancient and secretive and tafl structured process. part politics, part prayer. and always the potential for stunning surprise. so among the front runners, the cardinal angelo s is cola, archbishop of milan. well liked and close to pope benedict, he'd mark a return of cardinals to st. peter. a cardinal from ghana could be the first black pope. >> think of the interesting picture an african bishop, equally devoted to the churches of sex and marriage, its teaching there, and the teaching on poverty and the dignity of e

and that the pope viewed catholicism is the only true faith. as he prepares to step down as pontiff, protestants are still critical of benedict. the pope focus his energies in a different direction, moving to mend fences with orthodox christians. in 2006, he visited istanbul to call on the patriarch of constantinople, patriarch bartholomew is the first among equals. patriarch and haunted promised to work on unification, a highly significant about, but the pope did not get that far with the russian orthodox church. reconciliation will have to wait. meanwhile, he tried to win back anglicans to the church. the ordination of female priests divided moderate and conservative anglicans for decades. eventually, anglicans let in female priests. some conservatives rejoined the catholic church over the issue. benedict let them join and keep some of their spiritual heritage. a momentous appointment -- the dick gave a german bishops top job last year, the job didn't it held before he became pope. now, he supports dialogue with anglicans. he will keep reconc

i mean, certainly that is a powerhouse for catholicism. traditionally, historically. there are a lot of catholics there, and when you look at the future of catholicism it's browner than the catholic church might imagine. >> we've been talking for aa while, although it hasn't happened yet, of a third world bishop. either from latin america or possibly from africa. that's where peter turkson who is from ghana is an interesting possibility. i think he is on people's list. a, it was not anticipated, but, b, it wasn't anticipated that he would be as progressive a pope as he turned out to be. i think if you are on the more liberal side of the church, which you're praying for, is a surprise of that sort. >> i'm completely with e.j. on that, and if you are a progressive, a liberal these days in the church, you are hoping for like a felix frankfurther to surprise f.d.r. because you got to bet for a surprise because there aren't any liberal front runners. i have to get back to like in the united states when we vote, it's two who votes that matter. if you don't vote, you don't c

so what-- do they need a pope, does the catholic church need a pope what might be done for catholicismthe west where it's declining or maybe get a pope who can address where it's active and growing, and play to that strength? >> i think the cardinals have a tough choice, paul, if they have the idea they need a pope who has to protect the christians in middle east and china they want a highly political leader, a politician as pope. if they want a pope who can invigorate the church in europe, the west and africa where it's growing, they want a strong spiritual leader. he that's a difficult combination to put together. >> paul: you made a point this week and on our tv show and in our discussions that they need somebody who can also administer a vatican bureaucracy which always doesn't often implement the pope at the top level wants to accomplish, it's hide bound and insular, it can't engage with the broader world. >> i think he they probably need a pope with political skills who can drive bureaucracy. >> so that would suggest somebody who's younger and more vigorous, can do more than one

europe for the first time ever latin america africa asia that's where the growth market is for catholicism the church is booming in the southern hemisphere does it time to go for a pope who will represent where the future of the church really lies that's the other great choice facing these cardinals and and that could you know really determine the future of the church i think if you were to advise the pope if you had his what would you be advising and what would you say is top on the list to get across consult collaborate delegate you can't do it all yourself i know you're at the top of the pyramid you have all the power but you need to get some good people in who can do the things that you're not able to do and you need to listen to a lot of people in the church benedict was not able to do that the next pope has to do that david gibson jealous apocryphal of but it was sixteen thank you for taking the time to be with us when he could have a program to thank you thank you. in bahrain seven people lead spend a decade behind bars for the attempted murder of a police officer during anti-govern

who may be responsible for tainting the image of the church is the deciding factor in abandoning catholicism. there's another scandal with a girl who disappeared in the vatican twenty years ago and they say the man found her remains the italian police are leading the investigation here but instead of helping them about it is obstructing the investigation it's likely they knew about this and stayed silent and on top of all those cases of pedophilia with this is just disgusting the list of controversial events involving catholic priests or vatican officials reads like a tabloid reports of sex abuse pedophilia accusations allegedly corruption and possible ties with the mafia while the media especially in italy has been having a healed day with the scandals the vatican. others stayed silent. but those things may be looking rather grim for the seat of st peter's at a first glance there is still a chance the catholic church can make a comeback. with a church with. strong. we've come to reform because. the power. to the church is the spiritual but in spite of the. many wondering if. the world is ra