something dan cavanaugh knew all too well. remember him?ging the company's website. he called and e-mailed patrick on february 9, worried about joseph. yet as early as february 6, cavanaugh started withdrawing money from joseph's business bank accounts. >> why are you taking money from somebody that you don't know is not coming back unless you know he's not coming back? >> cavanaugh insists he had approval to access the funds while joseph was still missing. >> i actually corresponded with his family about that, and said we need a couple of gs out of the paypal account or we're going to lose everything. they're like, do what you need to do. >> but cavanaugh didn't stop there. by summer 2011 when joseph was still missing, cavanaugh had sold joseph's business to an outside company. >> they weren't really looking to give me huge amounts of money, but they were like, we'll just come in, pay off whatever debts and things that the company has incurred and bring it current, and then you'll barely get paid any money. >> patrick was enraged when he f

putin. >> jim cavanaugh, talk a little bit about that. in conducting these kinds of investigations in an unstable region to begin with in a place that is not fully under control of the government of record, how could that, in theory, play out? >> well, if the insurgents, the russian insurgents are controlling the donetsk area, they are responsible for shooting down the plane, even if it's an accident, they may not want investigators in there. they may not want to prevent that. they may want to cover up their accident. if they are controlling it with heavy weapons, which they have, you know, armored vehicles, machine guns, if they don't want someone in there, that can be very difficult like the colonel mentioned that. so it's not very easy now. it's going to be up to the ukrainian government. it's a territory they don't have total control of. vth fors are not going to walk around on some idealistic tape scene if people are over on the hill shooting machine guns at them. >> and initially it would be investigative assistance focused on deter

and then you can go from there. >> jim cavanaugh, thank you. that gets s >> jim cavanaugh, thank you. that getsets up one of the big pressing questions. who could have shot this down? i'm going to go to lieutenant barry mccaffrey. tell us, general, what kind of military capacity would be necessary to shoot down a plane like this? we're seeing accusations traded an thekrainian side of this. what do you think the likely perpetrator in all of this is? >> i'd repeat the typical caveat that all the commentaries have been using that we don't yet know all the facts. a couple of comments, though. at 33,000 feet, you can't see or hear aircraft almost ever. to get acquired by radar, these engagements are by radar. a commercial aircraft is beeping, the whole identification, friend or foe. commercial aircraft are easy to see. programmed path, programmed height. you can pick them out. so first observation is, this is more likely to have been a missile engagement from a separatist unit inside the ukraine than from a russian anti-aircraft unit that's part of

joining me now is msnbc's law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh.out investigating on the ground what happened? >> well, reverend, just like in any criminal investigation or big investigation of a downed airplane you want to get to the scene. the debris holds forensic answers. but i would caution you're not going to get many answers that we normally think about because a missile shot it downment there are no answers on the plane bs on board the aircraft, in the possession of passengers, terrorists, an accidental cause. the answers are on the ground at the missile launch site. our intelligence agencies and satellite agencies picked up the heat signature. what you've got to understand, we know the exact gps location of the heat signature. what we know based on what mick reported is whether that was in ukrainian territory or the country of russia. we know that because they know where are the signature is. >> jim cavanaugh, stay right there. we have much more coming up with you and fanl. stay with us. we'll be right back with more on the breaking news.

that doesn't pick up a missile. >> so jim cavanaugh, they would have probably no warning whatsoever,t they were shot down. u.s. officials are confirming now that this came out of nowhere for these pilots and they had no warning whatsoever? >> i think you're exactly right, eds. there is no warning an explosive device like a missile that a pilot would know they were hit. they would have seconds, minutes if that much before the plane goes and breaks apart and a 75 kilograms of explosive material in a missile like that so it would be a pretty catastrophic event and the fuel tanks will blow up and it will be pretty radical. as an old cop whenever we're doing a murder, we're always more concerned about the next murder because we can save that victim. what you talked about the prior piece, you're trying to divert civilian aircraft away and you're trying to stop whoever is doing this shooting on the ground, if it is the pro-russian insurgents and they are, you know, rag tag militia with rudimentary training who misidentified this aircraft, i think the white house who i think is handling this

. >> joining me now is the president and director of the naacp legal defense fund and jim cavanaugh, an msnbc law enforcement analyst, also a former police officer. i want to listen to tape of ramsey orta, the man who videoed that choke hold that ended in death, a very important interview he had on this network. let's listen to this. >> as soon as they came out the car, eric was harassed by the same officers plenty of times. he's been harassed by the same officer just for standing in the same area and they're just going off his past. they know to jump out on him, so i pulled out my camera and recorded it. >> we know that these kinds of things happen around the country, particularly in new york all the time. there isn't a camera all the time, but since we saw that video of rodney king 20 years ago, more than that, this has changed these kinds of police incidents into something where you can actually prove a complaint against police in these situations. >> and yet still be the convictions and the indictments are at an abysmally low level. we've seen it so many times before, and the que

. >> joining me now is jim cavanaugh, an msnbc law enforcement analyst and former police officer, andpson from x sirius radio. jim, i cannot think of an instance in which the immediate aftermath of a situation like this i have heard a leader of a department this big say that this incident has forced him to consider retraining for every single officer under his control. >> lawrence, bill bratton is a strong leader. he's an out-front leader. you got reports from sergeants on the scene saying they didn't mention a choke hold. but the two most important people in the department, the commissioner and the mayor in the city, the mayor mentioned the choke hold yesterday or the day before. so they're up front talking about it. they're not wanting to deny the obvious. they're taking it on. i agree with you, he's taking on the training issue. i would add, though, that not only use of force is necessary, but what's also necessary is street verbal negotiation skills so these things don't escalate, and leadership training for sergeants. who's in charge of this mess? who is going to step up and back

let's bring in hostage investigator jim cavanaugh. great to have you back.u're experienced with investigations, with explosions. as krystal mentioned earlier, somebody on the scene before anybody else, many of the bodies were in tact indicating that the plane had made a controlled landing. as an investigator, what does that say to you? >> i would say they are wrong. there's no controlled landing going on here. the plane, from the reports, is spread up over a debris field of nine-miles long. that's not a controlled landing. a blast and explosion can leave people in tact. this aircraft is large. it's a 777 and it's a huge aircraft. if it was one of these missiles that you've been discussing, like a buk missile, the payload, maybe 75 kilograms of explosives, it doesn't hit a plane that size and like totally disintegrate it. it's designed to take it out of the sky. no, it's not going to be blown into small bits. you see on the video, there's large pieces of wheels and air frames and tail sections and so forth. that could all be consistent with a missile launch.

. >> joining me now is jim cavanaugh an msnbc law enforcement analyst. and chelsea marcias.r reaction to that video? >> well, the choke hold, lawrence, is excessive. it's unnecessary, it's excessive force. in a rare situation like this, you question even why were any police forces arresting the guy for selling one loose cigarette, 50 cents or a few loose cigarettes. it should be a citation, not a physical arrest. and a choke hold is clearly against nypd policy. and it's unnecessary force. he -- the choke is said, if you look at the still photograph when he goes down on the sidewalk, that choke is set deep in his neck. and you could see how difficult it would be to breathe. and your chest would be heaving to get some air. so that is very excessive. but, you know, some of the other officers we can talk about, but they don't look like they're doing anything necessarily excessive. >> chelsea, what is the status of the investigation at this point? the nypd, obviously, is doing their own investigation. but what about the district attorney? >> well, lawrence, we know that the nypd

joining me now, jim cavanaugh, former police officer and atf agent, and, of course, msnbc law enforcement analyst. good evening to you. mark thompson, host of "make it plain" on sirius xm radio. here, michael, editor in chief of "global grind" and documentarian who's been an a advoca advocate. how do you define accountability and success in what the mayor and police commissioner are doing? >> i want to commend the may wror. he came back from vacation yesterday and went right to business. the mayor has taken proactive steps to address this case. i do think as the mayor said, everyone deserves due process under the law, but this police officer has to be charged with manslaughter. he has to be charged for the death of eric fwagarner. this was videotaped. we didn't see the sodomy that happened to another, or that 41 shots that was shot at dealo on the steps in the bronx but saw the death of eric garner. he heard him cry, said, i can't breathe 11 times. they're saying, put your hands behind your back, put your hands behind your back. i can't breathe, i can't breathe. somebody has to be held ac

. >> joining me now is jim cavanaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst, and a former police officer and >> hello, ari, how are you? >> looking at what we've learned here in this rather explosive report, in your view, when did this operation start going south? >> well, it looks like there's some problems with the planning. you know, we've run a lot of these home invasion cases in atf as well and a lot of them in south florida. and with the miami-dade police. but the best time to take them down is not at the apex of when the robbery is going to occur, because that's when they're in a heightened state, they have the ski masks on, they're armed. you want to take them down earlier in the conspiracy, when they're planning and getting ready and they've committed some overt acts. so really this is kind of a bad time to do it. but given that, even if you do do it at that time, you have to take great pains to make sure that the tactical officers who are going to, you know, do the takedown have met personally with the informant, talked with him personally. >> yeah, jim, i've got to ask you, why do

. >> jim cavanaugh, retired atf special agent, joins me by phone. thanks for jumping in here. to stress, we don't know the cause of this plane crash. mechanical, pilot error or whether there was an incident. and, if so, whether it came from the ukrainian side, the eastern ukrainian separatists or, in fact, russia. but we do know that a plane is down. 295 people. 285 passengers, 15 crew members. malaysian air flight 17 from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. if there were an incident, would a man pad shoulder fired missile be able to reach a plane at 35,000 feet or would it have to be one of these anti-aircraft systems like the buk? >> well, andrea, a buk if it was that, ukraunian source told reporters that it was that initially. we don't know. that's not verified as you've been reporting. the buk missile system basically is a surpass to air vehicle mounted system more than capable of taking down a passenger aircraft. and it had been operated for example by, you know, some separatist group with no controls over their actions, i mean, and they had the vehicle, these are usually track mo

. >> jim cavanaugh, thank you very much. >> thanks, alex. >>> are there any solutions at the big conferencehead. ♪ [ cat meows ] ♪ ♪ da-da-da-da-da, bum-da, bum-da ♪ ♪ bum-da, bum-da ♪ the animals went in two by two ♪ ♪ the sheep and the frog and the kangaroo ♪ ♪ and they all went marching, marching in two by two ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the nissan pathfinder, with intuitive four-wheel drive. an adventure worth sharing. nissan. innovation that excites. an fancy feast broths.ring. they're irresistabowl... completely unbelievabowl... totally delectabowl. real silky smooth or creamy broths. everything she's been waiting for. carefully crafted with real seafood, real veggies, and never any by-products or fillers. wow! being a cat just got more enjoyabowl. fancy feast broths. wow served daily. when you're voting for this summer's top 100 shows and movies with xfinity on demand, beep, beep, beep... watch to vote for family values on family movie night. this message paid for and approved by xfinity's family hits. tell me the whole thing again, i wasn't listening. watch to vote with xfinity on demand

okay, thank you very much, jim cavanaugh, i hope you can hear that thanks. >>> ahead, blame and consequences. who is responsible for the downing of malaysian airlines flight 17 and will they be punished? >>> and a new report from gaza as israel expands the ground war there. you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. make it happen with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth in cities coast to coast. thanks! sure. we've got a spike in temperature. so save the day... don't worry, i got this... oh yeah, i see your spaceship's broken. with xlte on largest, most reliable network. get 50% off smartphones like the new lg g3. [ cat meows ] ♪ ♪ da-da-da-da-da, bum-da, bum-da ♪ ♪ bum-da, bum-da ♪ the animals went in two by two ♪ ♪ the sheep and the frog and the kangaroo ♪ ♪ and they all went marching, marching in two by two ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the nissan pathfinder, with intuitive four-wheel drive. an adventure worth sharing. nissan. innovation that excites. an adventure worth sharing. i make a lot of purchases foand i g

joining me now, nbc law enforcement analyst and retired atf special agent in charge jim cavanaugh.ou, any idea how they got away with climbing one of the most iconic and supposedly guarded bridges in the world, switching these flags and still managing to elude authorities for four days? >> yeah, careful planning, alex, for sure. you know, even the time that they picked, 3:10, even though new york never sleeps, the time when it's probably the most sparse is about 3:10, you know, right between the late shifts off and the morning rush to come on. so they were very careful. they brought those la sonja plates to put over the lights. they have these climbing skills. rock climbing, mountain climbing, bridge climbing skills. they were determined, they planned and, you know, the reports by "the new york times" for example that they brought a prebleached flags, these are huge flags, alex, 12 feet by 18 feet. those are huge. if they were purchased, nypd's going to find out about that. one of the interesting facts is i think the uk mail reported in 2012, two of the flag, atop the bridge were s

this girl, sarah cavanaugh, last year decides to petition gatorade to remove this chemical.it's a fire retardant. it's banned in europe and jea. supposed to be investigated by the f.d.a., but the lobby of the soft drink industry has prevented it from doing it so far. she ends up getting over 100,000 people to join the campaign, she was on the cover of the new yorktime, she was on dr. oz. after a few weeks of campaigning in the context of never having addressed the issue. gatorade announces they're going to remove the chemical. then she subsequently starts a campaign against power-aid, coke and pepsi products and after year they changed the policy and removed this toxic chemical from all soft drinks literally because of a 15-year-old girl. this stuff seems remarkable, but it literally happens every day. dozens of victories just like that every day. >> i think that's absolutely amazing to hear these specific examples of campaigns. what we're seeing today is a real explosion of these campaigns, particularly on change.org. why are we seeing this explosion, and what do you think

. >> yes, and of course, mike cavanaugh, one of jamie dimon spit central -- potential successors just left in march to go to the carlyle group. we were talking in march about matt cain. devane, and mary urgo's, and gordon smith. .here are lots of people who knows who it will be? board andse, the every shareholder should hope that they are working on this, but do they need to be more close -- -- this it? olsive about question then becomes what happened to jamie dimon? want him tod to -- recover and stay at the helm. what a thing they need to start a horse race or a speculative game at this point. i think shareholders understand that. it is a good board. ofcharles at the university delaware and bill cohen, our contributing editor by skype. it is intrigued -- extremely important to emphasize we always jamie dimon recovers from cancer. we would not wish that on anyone. >> but the next time those to come back, i'm going to need their yearbooks. moving on, huge story in france today. former president nicolas sarkozy charged with influence peddling and accepting illegal campaign contribution

they lost mike cavanaugh to carlyle group. they lost other senior executives recently. these three people that people generally talk about our very talented, but whether they could be ceo of jpmorgan chase, i do not know. who could be ceo of jpmorgan chase? it is a booking with. -- behemoth. >> jamie dimon was clear in what is going on with him and what his treatment will like, and he mentioned there is a deep bench to succeed him if that is necessary. riskdless, does this becoming a distraction for jpmorgan. does inn, of course it the same way that it became a distraction for apple with steve jobs getting ill. jamie dimon it so closely associated -- jamie dimon is so closely associated with jpmorgan, their leader for 10 years, not the same way as steve jobs was with apple, but he is the longest-serving ceo on wall street at the moment. figure, a a public leader, of course, it raises questions. many potential successors to him have left the firm, so it does raise questions. look, they are out in front of it. i have talked about it early. >> yeah. >> they will deal with

. >>> malaysian state fund cavanaugh has plans to take malaysian airlines private. it would be the first step of restructuring the airlines, especially in the wake of the disappearance of flight 370. >>> a chinese woman has been arrested in california for trying to steal u.s. seed technology. they were charged with stealing corn seed in the states of illinois and iowa. she was similarly convicted last year. according to court documents, corn seed was hidden in boxes of microwave popcorn and packed in luggage for a flight to beijing. she is married to the chairman of beijing's technology group, a group that includes a corn subsidiary. >>> now, former french president nicolas sarkozy has taken to national tv to defend himself against allegations of corruption. stephane is in paris. stephane, what's the take on his defense last night? what are ordinary people in france saying? it's going to be potentially crucial for a presidential bid. >> justice has been -- and on planning to come back. >> the former president announced he would make a decision by the beginning of se

you know, i would know departure of mike cavanaugh months back was a big deal at the time and looms larger now. i think the expectation proves correct, no doubt, dimon, comes back to work and -- >> and even through this. >> it's not easy. >> what's distinguished between those executives with a form of cancer that's incurable and those who came out and said it's curable. talk about ben -- cancer is curable, that was 1029, 2010, you have warren buffet with prostate cancer, came out 4/17/2012, the stock was 7981. the big most unfortunate was we didn't think prostate cancer was easily cured in 1995 saying, listen, i can beat this cancer, wrote a lot a treaties about it, and them there was a double in one year. as he came back. when the company responsively says it's curable and it was. i did not get to steve ross, the prostate time warner a long time ago keeping records where prostate cancer was much more uncurable. >> unfortunately. something they did not catch early. >> this is not prostate. it's throat. good luck. >> as we said, prognosis is excellent. we'll see how it goes for him. >> poin

i think everyone expected mike cavanaugh was the shoe-in up until several months ago.do think that sense he has left, there is some question hanging over the fact that a lot of these people are so to speak back at mack for this job. i don't think that issing in the board is necessarily worried about. >> i think everybody has views on this, which is over the next several weeks and months, i imagine there will be lots of reporting about this. is that fair or unpair? >> i don't think so. i think we had the conversation. >> whether it's fair or not, i don't think there will be a lot of reporting on. you don't think there will be a focus? >> i think he deserves some privacy. it shouldn't be a ticking to moment by moment. >> you have to think about when larry page had larn joits and the company did not necessarily come forth with a lot of details about that, investors were left wondering. journalists were left speculating when he would miss conference tallahassee u calls and had no voice. >> aside from that, they have been forth right. >> i think they have revealed, we don't