it was baby step, you know, getting a gig at cbgb's, getting a better slot at cbgb's. >> but there was no long-range plan? >> no long-range plan. and it was -- you know, it just kind of growing our audience and, you know, we were always looking for better distribution. and we did -- you know, we left homestead for sst and then blast first was always in the picture. and we did make most of -- i don't know if we made most of our income from touring or not, but because we actually had an english company and an american company. so we did get money from both sides. >> yeah. >> but i think we probably made a fair amount of money from touring, which is still the way most people make money. >> right. that's the tension. are you a touring band primarily that also records? or are you a band that makes albums and then tours to support the albums, right? you can be one or the other potentially. >> yeah, it's -- i don't know. like, i really don't know how bands actually survive right now. small bands, you know, i have no idea. >> especially in a time when so much music is being consumed through sp