host: go back to ahmed chalabi. what impact did he have? guest: if there is one person responsible for the overthrow of saddam hussein, it would be chalabi. i remember when i came into the agency, going to a conference in new york of all these iraqi opposition figures, and there he was, and everybody knew he was a lying sleaze ball, but everybody knew he was important and that he had the ear of very powerful politicians in the united states and he would just sort of work the room. even in 1998 and 1999 when nobody really had -- no one believed that saddam was going to be removed from power -- if anything, it looked like saddam was going to finally get out from underneath sanctions -- ahmed chalabi kept on attacking, pressing his case, and he eventually found very sympathetic ears in the bush administration. the information that he would peddle to us that would come into the c.i.a.,s of just -- it as just the worst information. it was so erroneous and so silly at times. host: so how often were you called back to the oval ffice? guest: when i